some of the greatest seducers who are
not good looking at all what are the
qualities of a great Seducer I'm
revealing stuff I shouldn't be revealing
Robert Greene is one of the best-selling
authors in history an internationally
renowned expert on power strategies and
referencing songs by Jay-Z Kanye West
and Drake written six International
bestsellers that have become legendary
why did you write a book about seduction
seduction is in high form of power
people will do what you want without
ever even realizing seduction is a
mating ritual you can't just swipe and
get it but because of all the dating
apps if you are able to understand the
language of Seduction you're going to
have so much more power and success than
anybody else one thing about words is
people can lie but body language it
doesn't lie you master that language you
can start deciphering all these people
are giving you it's about psychology and
it's about how you carry yourself if you
feel confident it will naturally radiate
through your gestures but what is real
confidence and how does one build it
confidence comes from
you've talked about the topic of powers
but in 2018 you had a stroke in that
moment it sounds like your power had
been taken from you the left side of my
body is paralyzed and that was not easy
I've got to find a strategy to deal with
all this please understand that the
ability that you have now to run to walk
to type you can be taken away from you
it's miserable please don't take it for
granted
foreign
before we get into this episode just
wanted to say thank you first and
foremost for being part of this
community
um the team here at the diver Co is now
almost 30 people and that's literally
because you watch and you subscribe and
you um leave comments and you like the
videos that this Show's been able to
grow and it's the greatest honor of my
life to sit here with these incredible
people and just selfishly ask them
questions that I'm pondering over or
worrying about in my life but this is
just the beginning for the day of this
year we've got big big plans to scale
this show and to every corner of the
world and to to diversify Our Guest
selection and that's enabled by you by a
simple thing that you guys do which is
to watch so if there's one thing you
could do to help this show and to help
us continue to do what we do it's just
to hit the Subscribe button if you like
this show if you like what we do here if
you watch these episodes please just hit
that subscribe button means the world
let's get on with it
[Music]
what do I need to know about you and
your your earliest years to to
understand the life that you went on
that Journey you went on and the person
you came to be well I grew up here in
Los Angeles not far from where we are in
a neighborhoods called Baldwin Hills and
then we move to another neighborhood
a very nice childhood very middle class
family my father was a Salesman his
whole life worked for the same company
for 40 years just sold chemical supplies
um and you know my parents kind of left
me alone a lot I was basically my sister
almost kind of raised me in a way and
and you know I had a very nice childhood
kind of left alone sort of an introvert
books kind of shaped me I became an Avid
Reader in early age
no knew I wanted to be a writer got
heavily into drugs I'm afraid in high
school because that's that was the time
and where I went to school and in
college had some great experiences I
looked very fondly back even on my drug
experiences even though they got kind of
depressing after a while
but it kind of shaped me in in some ways
and you know that was that was me
growing up you know and if I had an
attitude or a lens in which I looked at
people from a distance like I was always
sort of Obsessed
with people wore masks and the way I
looked at it even when I looked at my my
parents and their friends and I said
what is really going on behind their the
masks that they were in all the social
nice cities going on
what is behind what is really the human
animal like and so these are kind of the
themes that
that were make big part of my Me growing
up
from what I read you had
a lot of different jobs and a lot of
different Industries up until the point
when you wrote
um the first of your many books called
the 48 Laws of Power back in 1998 and I
was looking at all of these different
jobs you'd had and they all seem to be
completely different from one another so
then trying to understand how you
arrived at a moment where you then wrote
a book on the topic and subject matter
of power
um having not been you know a psychology
graduate or seemingly worked in any
industry related to like human
psychology seemed to be really peculiar
to me
yeah and also I never really had a lot
of power up until that point so it
wasn't like I knew everything about
being a leader or anything
um you know a lot of things that happen
in life are kind of by coincidence or
serendipitous you don't necessarily plan
on it which is sort of when you look
back on it you can see a kind of an odd
plan going on like a Destiny or fate but
in the moment I didn't feel that
um I had all of these different jobs as
you mentioned some of them completely
unrelated you know I worked in
construction I had a construction job I
worked in the detective agency I was a
tour guide to help write an encyclopedia
I taught English in Spain you know on
and on and on and on and on
but I was searching I wanted to be a
writer and a writer needs experiences
I just was hungry for weird experiences
you know I never really stuck at any one
job and by the time you're 37 38
you know my parents are starting to
worry about me I'm starting to worry
about me I'm getting a little bit
depressed even have moments for suicidal
thoughts are floating in my brain like
I'm very ambitious I know I could do
something well but it's never come
together and so here's the Serendipity
part I'm in Italy for a job one of my 80
different jobs and I meet a man who's a
book packager there
on this particular job we're on and he's
he's a Dutchman I'm not going to imitate
him but he asked me if I had any ideas
for a book
and suddenly all of the painful
experiences in my life working in
Hollywood all the I've worked
for all these weird politicking all the
manipulative games all the crap that I
had seen it just came like almost
vomiting out of me and I said you know
here we are it's 20 this was 19 20th
century back then here we are in the
late 20th century
and people don't dress like they did in
the days of Machiavelli right they don't
wear wigs and stuff but it's the same
damn thing it's the same bloody battles
going on the same manipulations the same
kind of you know people don't reveal who
they are
and it's a Timeless game of power just
the same as Louis
xivari Borgia or the people the CEOs in
the late 20th century it says tout this
Timeless thing and I as I'm telling him
this his eyes are lighting he's wow this
could be this could really be a book
and you know
he said look Robert I'll pay you to live
while you write half the book and then
we'll sell it
and as I told you before I was desperate
it was my get rich or die trying moment
I went back to Los Angeles I borrowed
money from my parents because I was that
poor
and I wrote a treatment and he loved it
and that the rest is history that's sort
of my long-winded answer to your
question that's so interesting it's
crazy how in life
things can just take such a
ton out of nothing and you never know
what that thing is going to be and I
mean you say the rest is history there
give me an idea of the success of that
book the 48 Laws of Power because I mean
I've seen it everywhere for for as long
as I've been looking at books so what's
the give me some quantify the global
success of that book
quantify yeah
well here in the U.S it's it's sold
quite a bit over 2 million copies which
is great and the weird thing is it's
selling now more than it ever has sold
before in other words the the percentage
of books that we're selling here in 2023
is greater than any period before so
it's accelerating which is insane you
know and even my English Publishers
having the same uh is telling me the
same stuff
so it's kind of accumulated it it
started off a little bit slowly I mean
we got press but it became this kind of
cult thing I've had very little
publicity in mainstream media which was
big back then it's not big anymore thank
God but um
it was word of mouth it's like if you
heard about this book it's kind of dark
blah blah blah blah it got on a few
television shows there was this show a
reality show with boxers I think it was
called the contender in which the
finalist held up a copy of the book and
said this book helped me get to where I
am now and it sold like crazy it got
into the hip-hop stream you know Jay-Z
was the first person I ever saw quoting
the book in in print and in Playboy
interview and then you know 50 Cent and
all that and Drake and all these people
that really kind of set it into the
stratosphere so it's it's slowly become
a bigger and bigger thing and um
I had no idea you know I thought it was
a weird book and it could be successful
but I had no idea the journey I was
about to begin it's it's weird that
journey of writing this book has your
have your feelings towards the book
evolved or changed over time because
Society moves on you move on as an
individual as a human you learn new
things you mature and then the book is
kind of held in time
not really
um I I my philosophy in life is is never
look back regret nothing you know it's
it's there I did it it came in a
particular moment in my life and in in
the Zeitgeist and things have changed a
little bit
but I was it was a very serious effort
to try and get it something Timeless now
yes there's a dark side to it and maybe
I've moved on from that and I did
honestly when I wrote my fourth book
mastery
I was a little bit concerned that young
people were getting to were thinking
that the whole game of life is about
politics manipulation so I wrote a book
to kind of counter that
but I I think the book is is true and
it's held up I think
if I look at business what's going on in
the business world I kind of got I think
I hit it on the nail about what goes on
in the Dynamics and the power game
you know I wrote a book on human nature
and the idea is we were formed hundreds
of thousands of years ago in particular
circumstances our brains are wired a
certain way yes we're very sophisticated
yes we have the internet yes I'm here
being interviewed by you on a podcast
it's pretty insane but we haven't
fundamentally changed the same raw
emotions of Envy of aggression of of you
know worrying about our status about
having to disguise ourselves and appear
like we're saintly and loving that we
don't have a shadow which we all have
none of that has changed so yeah I
wouldn't write that book now because I'm
at a different place in life and and I
understand that but
I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in
any way I stand by it and I think I
hitted something real
what is in your definition what is power
you know I was really compelled when
you're talking about the evolution
evolutionary roots of power but like at
its Essence what is power
it's not what you think it is it's not
you know Vladimir Putin or presidents or
Biden or all these political figures and
these big games Power is a feeling it's
in essence it's an emotion it's a it's a
human need and desire
and really what power is is a sense of
understanding yourself and and being
able to control yourself so the way I
look at it I like to look at it not
through the lens of great power politics
but as an average everyday human being
here in the United States or in England
the feeling that you have with your
children with your spouse with your
colleagues the people who work for you
the sense that you have no control that
you can't influence them with your ideas
that you can't get them to maybe you
know soften some of their ugly Behavior
if they if they have that that you can't
get them interested in helping you with
a project or whatever is the most
miserable feeling a human being can have
Malcolm X out a quote that I love which
is
absolute power corrupts but absolute
powerless corrupts even more
I'm I'm butchering it but that was the
gist of it the feeling of powerlessness
is actually more corrupting than the
feeling of having a lot of power
you it makes it turns people into being
passive aggressive into playing all
kinds of weird games negative games to
get power
you want to feel that you have a degree
of control over events in your life over
people over your future and that to me
is what a power is right and so some of
that involves these games that I I
mentioned in there and some of it goes
beyond the 48 Laws of Power which I've
tried to indicate in my other books
but it's the sense that I'm not helpless
in this world
I remember when I first entered the work
world as a very naive college graduate
with all these ideals and things I'd
read because I was studying literature
and languages
going man this is weird people are
playing all these kind of games I mean
over my head I made mistakes I got fired
for being you know too Brash for
outshine the master it was painful right
and so
learning you don't have to abuse the
loss of power I don't Advocate crushing
your enemy totally I hope I don't have
any enemies ever that I need to crush
ever
you just need to know these things so
that when you enter the work world
you're not naive you're not stupid you
don't make the same kind of mistakes
that I made you spare yourself with pain
you understand the most fundamental
thing about human nature
people have egos
even your boss has an ego you think he
he or she doesn't because they're
powerful they have they're even more
insecure than other people you need to
be aware of these things so that you
don't inadvertently make them feel
insecure and suffer the consequences
so um that's I don't know that's sort of
my idea of power that I was trying to
describe there the way you describe it
is more of a sort of intrinsic
um Force perception of yourself when
people think of power they think of
having control over others or their
influence over others but you've kind of
made it more of a internal
Force yeah well if you can't control
yourself then you're in a lot of trouble
in this world right because
when you just naturally are yourself
doing things you're going to offend
people you learn early on we're social
animals I have to tailor my behavior you
know if you go on babbling about all
about how you feel and think Etc and you
just say what's the first thing on your
mind you're going to end up having a
very very short career you're going to
be saying things that are going to
offend people you're going to be making
a fool of your yourself you'd be saying
things that you end up regretting right
so you have no self-control
and if you see somebody who has no
self-control it makes them it makes you
look like you're not powerful if you
can't control yourself how can you
control anything in your environment how
can you be a leader right so you have to
learn
certain things about about your nature
about who you are and and not just just
be anybody you have to kind of tailor
your appearances as well
because for good or for bad I'm a
Believer in looking at the human animal
without shame and embarrassment just as
we are right and appearances matter it's
the animal part of our nature we we're
we look at we look we judge people by
how they how they how they appear how
they dress their tone to voice their
body language etc etc
it would be in an Ideal World
we wouldn't judge people by appearances
we just judge them by what's inside of
them yes I agree with that but that
we're not ideal we're not descended from
Angels we're descended from primates so
you have to understand that appearances
matter and this is part of of the game
and so
you have to control your appearances a
little bit you have to tailor it you
have to be a bit of actor in this world
on and on and on
you know these are things that people
don't like to admit about ourselves we
like to think that we we're much more
have much more idealistic that we're
that these things really don't matter in
the end
and I wish it were that way but it's not
and so um I'm a bit more of a realist
when it comes to things like that but
yeah
as you were talking about this
need to keep up appearances to some
degree in order to survive and to fit
into the the tribes that we form in our
lives it made me think about how many
guests I've had on this podcast who work
in maybe the entertainment industry or
other Industries yeah you know they're
famous whatever and they report that
Keeping Up Appearances had a really
detrimental impact on their happiness
and their fulfillment in life because in
some cases they you know it meant that
they were doing a job as a presenter and
had to always be happy when inside they
didn't feel that and maybe the contrast
of reality and
um and perception caused them a lot of
harm or they've built a life around
things that they're not interested in I
think you touched on some of that in
Mastery yeah
um that's the that's the question I have
which is keeping up appearances and the
impact that that has on your happiness
are you wearing a mask
um and happiness what's the relationship
I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power
where
you have to play this this game in life
it's a con to me it's a form of wisdom
which is
it's a wisdom that used to exist like in
the 18th century I read a book that had
a big impact on me many years ago called
the fall of public Man by Richard Senate
in which he described like Cafe life in
London in the 18th century or France and
he was saying back then when you entered
the public Arena or your Cafe you knew
you were an actor you left the house you
put on the mask and you had fun you know
you knew it was like fun it was play you
know when you're a child you like
playing games you like putting on
costumes you like playing your parents
or some character you saw on TV it's
part of human nature we like to play
these games where role players we're
actors and he was saying in the 18th
century that was just a given in life
that when you entered the public realm
you knew you were an actor and then when
you went home
to your wife your family or your husband
or wherever
you drop the mask you went you breathe
the Deep Side relief go now I can be who
I am right and and it wasn't a problem
it didn't create neuroses it didn't
create this like what's wrong with me
I'm I don't know who I am anymore
so people now the problem now is we
don't have distance from that social
realm and so we think that if we're
acting that's who we are but it's not
it's just that's part of being a social
animal is playing a role you know I did
a book with 50 Cent and he kind of
exemplifies a lot of that
he plays a role in life you know when I
met him I I thought uh oh
I was kind of intimidating I was a
little bit afraid you know the thug this
is a guy when I met him he was you know
just a few years away from being shot
and all this stuff
and I met him
and he was the nicest person well he was
almost kind of sweet he'd hate it if I
said that word but he was sweet right he
was very down to earth he was very calm
Etc he's playing a role when he goes out
and he plays that person he knows it he
knows it's like he doesn't take it
seriously you know he had this big beef
with Kanye West back when I was doing
the the the book with him and then I met
the two of them in Vegas when they were
there for the awards they were like the
best of friends they were joking it was
just a game they were playing right so
what I tell people is
we all are actors
humans are born actors we learn at a
very early age to play that kind of game
it's kind of fun sometimes to do that
you know have it enjoy that part of life
but don't think that it don't get
confused with who you are in your
essence
that's sort of the dance you're playing
between those two things I understand
what you're saying and a lot of it has
to do as you said related to Mastery
where people end up in a career
that doesn't suit them
and I look I I think I understand what
you're getting at or I look at like
presenters or people in the news and
they have to smile and be so cheerful
like man what a drag I'd hate to be like
that you know that is so false don't you
feel kind of don't you want to take a
shower after you being so cheerful and
chatty and all that you know yeah I
understand that
but if if that's the profession you
chose and you love it then maybe you
don't feel that way I couldn't do it
personally but you know I think
I think it's okay
think of yourself as an actor I don't
think there's anything wrong about that
um the second very curious lower in your
book that I uncovered was it was low
number two I'm talking about the 48 Laws
of Power here where it says never trust
friends too much
learn how to use enemies yeah do you
trust your friends
okay well everything in the book is
context so when you take things out of
context it's a little harder to
understand and what I'm trying to say in
that
I'm talking about in the Work World when
you're out in the social realm and one
of the worst things that people do is
you have a job and I've been guilty of
it myself even after I wrote the damn
book
you're out in the work world and you
need to hire somebody you need to find a
colleague you need to find some a
partner or an employee
your mind naturally gravitates towards a
friend right because they know you you
trust them you have a relationship you
know and you feel comfortable with them
and it's a terrible mistake
so many of the worst things have
happened in history are because of that
very problem
because friends is there's all these
emotions involved between people right
and those emotions confuse the issue so
what I'm talking about in that law is
when you need to get results you need to
think when you have a job or something
you have to think in Practical terms not
in terms of emotions not in terms of
friendship etc etc
so you want to keep your work world
separate
it's not everything about life is having
to be friends and having nice things and
everybody like you
sometimes what matters is getting
results done and sometimes the best
person to work with isn't your friend
because they don't have all this other
stuff that we're talking about in fact
a very powerful move is if there's an
enemy out there somebody who you never
got along with
if you say if you approach them and say
let's bury the hatchet you know I have a
job and I'd really like you to work with
me I know you're really smart
that per the turnaround of emotions is a
very powerful thing where they're going
wow yeah sure that's that's great I
never expected that and they're all
they're highly motivated to now prove
that they're worthy of of your of your
change of mind
so
it's not about not trusting your friends
in the realm of friendship in personal
relationships it's about being aware
that the work world is different from
the realm of personal relationships the
other point I found really curious was
was put 0.3 about concealing your
intentions and yeah I I find this
curious because I've never really known
where to land on this when people ask me
for advice on the subject matter about
how much of your hand should you show
whether it's in business or life or
whatever there's a there's a group of
people that think you should always just
keep everything you're doing and your
intentions totally secret because then
people might copy you or they'll attack
you whatever and then there's another
school of thought that says when you're
building something when you're doing
something when you have a mission you
need to share it with as many people as
possible because that will Galvanize
people to to come along with the journey
with you and they'll want to support you
and help you so when I read
um Point number three about concealing
your intentions
I wanted to ask you about what what you
think about that which side do you land
on well everything depends on
circumstances so the laws are never
meant to apply to every situation right
so when it's with your own team and
you're trying to inspire them and you're
trying to give them a vision you try to
get them on your side yeah you share
your vision with them you share this is
where the group is going this is where I
want things to be in three years let's
all get together we're trying to do
something very positive for the world
okay here we here's my plan right but
then there's circumstances where
revealing everything that you about what
you're planning to do is actually very
counterproductive right so the business
world
in the 21st century is extremely
competitive it's getting worse and worse
by the day as more and more people now
are entering the power Arena and I think
it's a great thing where it used to be
just a realm where only older white men
had power and now it's the doors have
opened everyone the comp level of
competition is that much more intense
particularly now even with the internet
you have Rivals out there you have
competitors out there even as we talk
right now maybe you're not thinking
about them but they are they're going to
steal your ideas they're looking to take
your business away from you
etc etc just be aware of that phenomenon
and just always saying what you're
planning on doing isn't always the
wisest thing to do sometimes if you're
in a tricky situation
making putting people off the scent
giving them a red herring and saying I'm
planning to do this when in fact you're
planning to do that it's very powerful
technique it's deception but all's fair
in Love and War and business I'm I'm
afraid so you know there are moments
where you don't want to lay all your
cards out on the table right you want to
either create a little bit of mystery so
that people don't know what you're going
to do next and they're wondering what
you're going to do next
and as they're wondering what you're
going to do next they're kind of on
their heels a little bit what's the next
thing that that Stephen is planning I
don't really know wow you know it makes
it it's a very powerful approach there
are other times and other experiences
and moments in life where you do want to
reveal what you're planning to do
because there's a purpose behind it I'm
just saying be aware don't just act in
this world be aware have a strategic
mindset sometimes concealing is what you
need to do sometimes not concealing is
what you need to do it's funny when we
have this conversation about power and
the Darkness and the Shadows that people
have in them I think a lot of people
listening
and probably it seems that way because
I'm the one asking the questions is if
I'm questioning society that I'm not
part of
um they'll think they don't they might
think they don't play these games right
they might you know so that's the
question I have is like have you ever
encountered anybody do you believe
there's anybody out there that doesn't
play power games manipulation have
shadows have darkness in them no I don't
but um so in my War Book uh I I read the
biography of Mahatma Gandhi
well the Saint Louis figures in history
right
and I realized that Mahatma Gandhi was
actually a brilliant strategist now I'm
not saying his use of non-violence and
Civil Disobedience didn't come from the
heart he didn't mean it he wasn't
actually he didn't actually believe in
the peaceful method he did it was very
sincere but he was very strategic about
it and he planned a campaign several
campaigns like the Salt March in the 20s
where he knew for instance that the
English public was very liberal-minded
they had this idea of themselves as
being this very they weren't
colonialists they weren't imperialists
they were doing the best for the world
and he deliberately had these marches
where he knew that that on they would be
reading in their newspaper and seeing
photographs of Indian people being
beaten up by Englishmen and and their
Indian officers on the streets of
wherever
it would have a terrible impact on the
public he thought in terms of strategy
okay so there's Gandhi then there's
Martin Luther King who's somebody I
wrote about a lot in the laws of human
nature another great icon whom I admire
who actually was inspired by Gandhi and
had campaigns of Civil Disobedience and
there was a campaign I believe it was in
Montgomery or Selma Camp which remember
which one
where um he was getting fed up they
weren't getting very far the Civil
Rights moved they're reaching a stale
mate and he was getting very frustrated
and
um somebody an advisor came to him said
look we're going to have this massive
March and and I I can get a lot of
Elementary School and Junior High School
students to be on this March because
they believe in you and they're very
fervent
and I think it'd be great and his
advisors go God you can't do that
you can't have put 13 year olds at risk
and Martin Luther King thought about
Virgin he said no we're going to go
ahead and do it
because damn it I want the American
public sitting in there all fat and
watching their televisions to see these
brutal you know Paul Connor the the
police chief then
I want to see these children being water
hosed and beaten and it's going to have
an incredible impact he was being
strategic and his advisors were shocked
by it but it ended up proving to be one
of the most pivotal important moments in
the Civil Rights Movement so here you
have Gandhi and Martin Luther King I'm
never and Martin Luther King was a
flawed individual as we know right he
had a private life that wasn't exactly
in the same as his public life
I don't judge him for that because he
was a brilliant man and I admire him I
love him deeply reading his biography
made me even admire him even more seeing
that he had a human flaw outside to him
but these are icons that we set up and
they reveal what I'm talking about in
human nature
you can't escape it but yeah maybe there
was some Saint born in some Century that
I've never heard of that maybe
got pretty far away from everything I've
talked about
but you know you know we all have this
idea like
in the laws of human nature I write
about irrationality Envy aggression we
go or narcissism narcissism is a good
one
oh they're a narcissist I'm not a
narcissist I'm not self-absorbed but
they are yeah yeah I don't have any of
those traits well damn it every single
human being has self-absorption traits
we can't help it we naturally think of
ourselves first yes there are people who
are much deeper narcissists in life no
doubt and there are toxic narcissists
but we all have a touch of it I want you
to be a little more humble in this world
and not be so arrogant and not think
that you are somehow exempt from having
a dark side that somehow you were born
with a halo over your head that you were
born different you don't have human
nature that you're a saintly person
you're much better get rid of your moral
superiority because I find that deeply
offensive we are all Cut From the Same
Cloth we all have the same flaws and
when you look at yourself and when I
wrote the laws of human nature I'm going
damn it Robert
you have a dark side you're a narcissist
you know I had to come to terms with my
irrationality my grandiosity my
aggressive instincts but it's the only
way to change yourself is to be aware
that you have these issues
I have the narcissistic Tendencies now I
see it all right now when they prop up
pop up I can control it better I can say
damn Robert you're being too
self-absorbed you think more about the
other person but if you go around in
life thinking I don't have any of these
problems I'm not a narcissist you're
never going to have the awareness to
stop the fact that you are actually one
being a narcissist is that objectively a
good or a bad thing because when you
when you was obviously I know people are
having a bad thing it's a narcissist
cause a lot of harm and that's very true
but in the context of the human animal
and why the human animal develops
certain attributes and qualities to to
you know maybe further it survival or
its ability to stay within the social
pact is it just a consequence of being a
human to have these like Shadow traits
and to be coercive and manipulative is
it good or is it bad
or is it neither it's neither neither
um
because it just is right
um so with narcissism for instance
um there's a reason why we're
narcissists so I explained in the book
it's not my own Theory it comes from
some great psychologists like kahoot the
origins of narcissism right so when
you're
have to leave you when your parents have
to kind of not abandon you but have to
not give you as much attention as you
used to have and you're three years old
or four years old
you don't remember it but it was very
painful
like oh they don't love me as much
what's wrong with me right you know I
have to get that love and attention not
just naturally I have to do things to
earn it etc
etc and what happens with a lot of
people in that situation when you're a
child is
I have to develop my own I have to be my
own mother or father I have to find a
way of loving myself
when something bad happens I have to
retreat Inward and go I'm really not so
bad at all I'm actually a decent person
I like my own tastes I like the clothes
that I wear etc etc you're developing
the shreds of self-esteem right and
people who never develop that because
they were abused or they were abandoned
or even if they were suffocated
never developed that self-esteem and so
what happens in life is whenever if you
don't develop that and you get older
and people attack you and yell at you or
criticize you you can't Retreat inward
to that self-esteem that love you have
the only thing you know is to get angry
to get the call it narcissistic rage and
to yell at people and say God get away
from me you're evil etc etc etc right
and then the other problems evolve where
the only way I don't have that inner
self-esteem the only way I get people to
love me is by being incredibly dramatic
and overly dramatic Etc et cetera et
cetera and always making myself the
center of attention that's what creates
a deep narcissist that's their only way
of getting the love that they need so
children we all need that degree of
self-esteem that anchor in our life so
narcissism self-love is not a bad thing
but what happens is as you get older if
you go too deep into it it becomes a
problem and so what I say is you need to
take that self-love and it's it has a
good function and turn it outward slow
as much you can and turn into empathy
and love and consideration for other
people more that's your task as you get
older in life that's how I approach all
of these flaws you can't run away from
them you can't run away from your Shadow
your dark side you can make it work for
you can make it positive and productive
and healthy you can become a healthy
narcissist which is a a name that I use
in the book
you can use your dark side for positive
purposes
let's say you have a lot of anger in
your inside and I had a lot of anger
when I was younger I was a very angry
young man right
channel that into some kind of cause
like and you know that I have a lot of
causes that I believe in very deeply and
when I was younger I was like that
channel that energy into something
productive and helpful and put it into
something that goes to something that
helps Society that's using your dark
side for positive purposes because the
Dark Side Of Human Nature has a lot of
creativity has a lot of energy an artist
has to have a dark side you use your
dark side because all those dark
emotions all the people that shat on you
in your life they inspire you they
create your best work don't run away
from your Shadow don't run away from
your narcissism use it in a healthy way
and acknowledge it I think that's the
hardest thing for people to do right
yeah
so few people I think including myself
like have really fully understood what
their their shadow in their dark side is
I mean doing this podcast has really
helped me because I learn things from
other people vicariously and then I look
at reflect on myself or keeping a diary
has helped me to understand that but
that first step in someone having the
self-awareness to understand their dark
side I mean there's even a lot of people
who confronting their Dark Side would be
so it feels like it would be so
impactful on their self-esteem in a
negative sense that they spend their
life
putting up a wall to never go there I
mean there's some people who you even
mention something to them and they would
triggers triggers them yeah you know we
can all think of those people
um
we can all think of those people that
the really interesting thing there is
the role that your early years play on
your relationship with power
because when I think about some of the
nicest I don't know if this is just a
general a stereotype or a narrow
observation I've had but some of the
nicest people I've met in terms of you
know being the opposite of whatever and
toxic narcissist is seem to have really
comfortable loving secure safe early
experiences and then is that is that
broadly true in your view
it's a generalization but there is is
some truth to it I mean there's things
that called attachment theories where uh
psychologists have looked at the kind of
attachment you had to your parents and
they categorized it in four different
ways and there's the ideal the best one
where you have this
incredibly loving mother and father and
they they're they're giving you
unconditional love but they know also
how to give you your Independence Etc
it's not terribly common I don't know
what the percentage would be then
there's levels and levels and then as
you get to the fourth level it's like
the abandonment one where or abusive and
abandonment where you basically leave
the child alone you don't give it any
attention any love and it's very
crippling right but the thing is
children are much stronger than we think
they are they're very resilient they're
very resourceful
they're gonna find their love they're
going to find a way to compensate for it
in some way and what's something very
interesting when I was doing seduction
in some of my other books and I look at
people who were like very charismatic
like a Malcolm X like a Marilyn Monroe I
could go on and on and on these are
people that came from very very bad
families right
they had no love Marilyn Monroe was a
was an orphan essentially raised in an
orphanage you know her whole life was I
gotta get people to love me I need love
so desperately and her way of doing it
was to literally make love with the
camera nobody ever done that before you
could sense that she needed it and it
was so powerful that you sensed it that
she drew it to herself
great charismatic individuals John F
Kennedy is someone who had a lot of
Charisma he came from a very bad
childhood right his father was very mean
to him Etc some children in the worst
circumstances it ends up bringing the
best out of them they have to find their
way in life and some people who have
everything
don't go very far because they don't
know how to find things for themselves
so life is weird some people who have
great childhoods do well some people
have great childhoods are spoiled and
never learn how to get things on their
own and some people have the shittiest
childhoods learn how to be resourceful
and and and and and get what they need
on their own
you mentioned seduction there The Art of
Seduction why did you write a book about
the topic of Seduction
seduction is in a high form of power
because you make people feel pleasure
you make them feel excited or interested
in you and then their their resistance
to your ideas slowly lowers and you have
the ability to influence them and to
move them in the direction that you want
if you yell at them like how we talk
about your child and you tell them do
this do that they resent it and for good
reason
but if you're subtler if you're more
seductive in your approach if you're
more indirect
people will do what you want or go in
your direction without ever even
realizing it so it was a sub theme in
the 48 Laws of Power and so I was sort
of interested in the psychology of that
and why some people are good at it and
some people are awkward about it so when
I finish the 48 Laws of Power I thought
this would be
a natural segue the next book what are
the qualities of a great Seducer
well I like to distinguish between cold
seducers and warm seducers a cold
Seducer is something you don't want to
be that's the typical image that we
might have of a male Seducer but even of
a female Seducer like the great courtesy
set up or they're just after money or
the men are just after sex
that's not my ideal my ideal
is kind of a back and forth quality
where it's not domination it's sort of
like a game that you're playing it's
like a mating game it's like a courtship
ritual where both part people are kind
of seducing each other and so what makes
for a great Seducer is very simple I can
summarize it very simply you are outer
directed
so when you meet somebody
for the first time or you're on a date
or whatever it is
you're not having that internal
monologue going does she like me or does
he like me am I dressed well am I saying
stupid things what can I do to impress
them no you turn it off and you're out
or directed and you're listening to them
and you're entering their spirit and
you're hearing them say things that that
give you idea of what they're missing in
life of what they want of what their
needs are of what makes them an
individual
you're absorbing it you're entering into
their spirit and then you can reflect it
back to them you can give them gifts you
can take them to places that show that
you're attentive to them
because if you look at how we are in our
day-to-day life
normally people never pay us attention
they're always so self-absorbed they're
never thinking about us
I mean the times where you get the sense
that people are actually interested in
who you are as an individual is pretty
rare
if you give that feeling to someone it's
incredibly powerful because we all want
to be validated we all want to be
recognized
so what the Seducer is not someone who's
all worried about him or herself and
thinking they're involved in the other
person they're absorbed like a sponge
inside their psychology inside their
world
a lot of this is you know very
applicable to romance and dating
etc etc it fails for whatever reason I
you know not necessarily something I've
read much about in your work but it
feels like dating and romance and
relationships have become
much more complicated in the modern
world that it's become much more
difficult to seduce somebody
um what is the what are the attributes
of someone then that is not good at
seducing
anti-seducer has many qualities I have a
whole chapter on the anti-seducer I try
and Define it
uh there there are several of them I
can't I don't have them all memorized
but one quality that's very
anti-seductive is preaching and
moralizing
is like telling people oh that's wrong
what you just said or your politics are
ugly or you're not a really you're not
really good at this or something or
other
having a moral superiority a sense of
sanctimonious sanctimony in a realm
which should be about pleasure where
should be that kind of equality that
kind of dinette back and forth Dynamic
where you're asserting your moral
superiority is deeply deeply
anti-seductive the element of preaching
to people
not being generous
and I mean not just with money money is
important
but not being generous with your spirit
right
you want to be open you want to give as
much as you can to the other person of
yourself of your time of your money of
your energy Etc
so being all kind of crimped and I don't
want to give I don't want to spend money
I want to take you to the cheap place to
eat I don't want to give you much time
is very very anti-seductive when you're
talking a second ago about the person
who goes on the day and they're thinking
about themselves and what they you know
what their hair looks like or whatever
else
that spoke to an insecure person
is insecurity a seductive quality or is
it a
anti-seductive quality it is
anti-seductive now there is a part of
weakness that is seductive
so I would say vulnerability is
seductive but insecurity is
anti-seductive and there's a big
difference why does vulnerability draw
people to you
because
the sense so if I can Define seduction
in in in simple terms
um most of the time we are closed to the
influence of other people particularly
now we have these walls up because life
is Harsh people are coming at us with
their advertisements with their pleas
with their wanting money with this than
the other and we've all learned to be
very defensive right and seduction is an
openness is the opposite of that and you
felt it when you were a child towards
your parents you felt very vulnerable
and open and and there was an element of
your parents and how they treated you
that was very much like a seduction
right so seduction is about being open
to the other person to the extent where
you can even fall in love you can fall
under their spell and the sense of
letting go of your ego letting go of
your defensiveness and letting other
another person enter your world is being
seduced it requires vulnerability if you
meet the typical
um scenarios of a man
who's not vulnerable at all he's so
powerful and in control and everything
has no vulnerabilities it's frightening
you know for a woman it could be very
frightening like this he's he's so
strong he's so invulnerable that there's
something wrong about it you know maybe
he's a serial killer maybe he's got
skeletons in his closet something isn't
right about that what what seduces you
about a puppy about a child about an
animal is their vulnerability it makes
you want to hug them it makes you want
to help them right the sense which If
You Came Upon A a tiger that's there and
that they don't need that well that's
not seductive I mean on your screen it
is but if they're there in your living
room that's not seductive but that puppy
is Right vulnerability the sense that
somebody needs protection or help brings
out qualities in us that we don't
normally have that I think allow for
seduction so that is being vulnerable
that is
I can be influenced by that other person
I am open to the to their Spirit right
that's being vulnerable the word
vulnerable I hate to sound like a
professor so excuse me in seduction it
comes from the wrong the root of it
means a wound vuleness so you have a
wound inside of you and you need healing
and the other person naturally wants to
help you right but being insecure is the
off means
I'm so self-absorbed I'm so worried
about myself
that I can't get out of it and we've all
had that experience when you meet
somebody and they and you can sense you
can smell their insecurity in them I'm
not judging them because we all have
insecurities
it makes you feel insecure it makes you
feel a little bit awkward whereas if you
meet someone who's not like that who's
confident Etc it brings out that quality
in you so if you're on a date and
there's someone who's you smell that
kind of insecurity it makes you awkward
and insecure it creates a kind of a
problem so that would be the difference
between the two
there's going to be a lot of people
listening to this that are single
and ready to mingle
um what advice would you give them in
terms of being great at dating you've
talked about the importance of
vulnerability there and how that kind of
forms connection between humans in a
very innate way what else is great
dating advice for this for the single
people out there well
the thing is okay there are several
things so first of all we live in a
culture where people think you don't you
shouldn't have to put effort into
something like love and romance you
should just be who you are man I don't
have to put on a rule I have to play a
game that's manipulative
no I'm sorry
love and romance is something that is
almost biological
if you look at animals and mating
rituals they're incredibly elaborate
seduction is a mating ritual and so the
worst thing you can feel is that this
person isn't putting any effort into
something
let's just say it's it's uh it's from
the woman's point of view this man
he just shows up wearing jeans and his
usual sloppy outfit he doesn't come's
hair
etc etc etc
he takes me to the pub for dinner on our
first date
you know he's not thinking about me he's
not willing to put any effort into it if
he's not willing to put any effort into
it
what's it going to be like three months
down the line when he completely takes
me for granted which is what happens in
a relationship am I not important enough
right whereas the ability to have a
little bit of effort to think of it as
kind of theater and drama and that
there's nothing evil about it so
I'm going to dress nicely I'm gonna I
just have to be fancy just that I'm
gonna you know I'm gonna put some effort
into how I look I'm going to take her to
a place that isn't is you know I'm not
talking about candlelights and roses and
that kind of crap doesn't that you can
be creative it can be somewhere that
that's scuzzy that's on the wrong side
of town but it's different and it's
appealing to and you put some thought
into it there's a reason you're taking
her there right I have a friend who went
on a date and she came back from the
date and was complaining because the
person that she date went on that first
date with
was using a took it to a spot where he
had an available valid discount code
and and talk about anti-seduction there
you go why is that anti-seductive in
that case one might say that male is
being you know economically Savvy
financially savvy
that you know if you're not able to let
go of your of your kind of tightness
when it comes to a woman something's
wrong with you man just let go spend
some extra money spend the extra 10 quid
that you might need to spend on taking
you to someplace different but it
signals a kind of cheapness and it's not
about money it's about a cheapness in
your spirit
right she's not worth
you know letting go okay maybe you don't
have that much but my God you have
enough it's not gonna like if you're
that poor then then you know okay maybe
but probably not you could afford it
show that you that it means something to
you
let seduction is a language it's not a
language of words it's a language of
gestures that we're paying attention to
we're paying attention to people's body
language we're paying attention to their
actions to the things that they never
say
so when you signal that
discounts are so important to you that
even on the first date you have to have
a discount
you're signaling that it's not there's
something tight about you in your nature
and it's not very pleasant I from doing
this podcast and speaking about topics
like love and sex and dating and you
know dating apps even one of the um
comments I saw quite frequently was from
young men who are struggling to seduce a
woman yeah or vice versa
um specifically young men that you know
and then I read some stats I think Scott
Galloway came on the podcast and talked
about how
I'm gonna butcher these numbers but a
staggering amount of men haven't had sex
and the young men haven't had sex in the
last 12 months
um and then when I looked at the
comments section specifically on YouTube
I saw I kind of saw that energy
reflected where it looked like young men
in particular were struggling to seduce
a mate a partner in the modern world
is is that real in your view is there is
there something that has changed in
society has that always been the case
um is there anything we can do if we're
a young man that's struggling in the
modern world because of the internet and
computers and this and dating apps and
well a lot of it is I'm afraid to say is
internet porn
where you get the idea that you know sex
is something that should be very easy
and quick and that women should have
look how that kind of body and physique
etc etc and that becomes your Norm
Etc that can be that can be very
damaging but the idea that things must
come easy and quick is is very prevalent
and to win over someone like oh say
you're a man it's a woman who might be
reluctant to have sex for good reason or
reluctant to have a relationship
requires some effort it requires some
thinking you can't just hack well you
can't just swipe and get it you can you
can have your internet sex but you're
not going to get that in real life it
doesn't work that way it takes time it
takes patience you know and you're gonna
have to work and you're going to be
rejected
being with people is a skill being a
social animal although there's a part
that comes naturally if you spend all of
your time here you're losing that skill
of how to respond to people's body
language you know half of the thing is
you're sitting in a bar opposite let's
say it's a woman
and how she crosses her legs how she
sips her drink how she looks at you how
she touches her hair she's signaling
things it's a language it's a beautiful
language right you have to learn it and
you're not going to learn it here
because you can't you have to be in
person it has to be skinned skin you
have to get a feel of what other people
are thinking and feeling and we're
actually really really good at that
humans have that's what makes us human
it's called mirror neurons I can sense
what's going on in your mind I can read
your body language
you have to get out in the world and you
have to be put yourself physically out
there and try and try and try and have
rejection
and I know it sounds awful but it is a
skill in a way where you're learning how
to like understand and deal with people
and and and understand that what they're
who they are and get inside their Spirit
it takes time and effort and patience so
for young men you have to realize that
right you if you think everything has to
be easy and quick it's never going to
work for you and I talk about the actor
the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn
who is perhaps
numerically the greatest male Seducer
ever because estimated that he had
seduced close to 3 000 women and he died
when he was 50 and if I I did the math
one day what how can that possibly be
um
and I tried to research what was his
secret and it was hard to find out
finally I found a book written by a
woman whom he had seduced another
actress and she said
he was so relaxed and so comfortable it
was like being it was like an animal
type thing and then what I would sit
with him it was almost as if I had drunk
two martinis just sitting next to him
his comfort and his security and his
confidence his relaxed attitude it just
made me drunk
so feeling relaxed feeling confident and
not defensive and comfortable with
yourself is a very powerful seductive
quality I mean there are many of them
but that's one that I would point out
have you ever figured out what builds
confidence you earlier on you were
talking about how children need to
experience things first hand you can't
just tell them you can't just tell
someone for example to be confident
preaching doesn't seem to work what what
is it in your view that that does build
that true or you also can't fake
confidence no I remember we talked about
rejection a second ago I was rejected by
pretty much every girl that I was
pursuing between the ages of of 16 and
I'd say 22. really yeah like and I do
you know what it was I I was faking
confidence it all changed when I was
actually had a sense of security in
myself but in the period where I was
like faking confidence I was pretending
I was confident
um it was like they could they just
could read past it that's almost how I
look back on the situation so I came to
learn that you can't fake confidence you
can't pretend to be it because there's
so many sort of micro Expressions that
yeah that you that look that end up
reading more like insecurity than
confidence
um but what is real confidence and how
does one build it in your view well
you've kind of answered your own
question there in a way so um you know
conf fake conferences like bravado right
and you're putting on an act
and particularly women who've had to
deal with this for you know Millennia
they can smell it they can sense it they
don't have to it doesn't have it's not
in your words it's the body language etc
etc
real confidence comes from actual
um actions from your actual things
you've accomplished right so you know
when you're 22 21 it's hard to have that
confidence because what is it based on
you know maybe it's based
okay maybe you're you're really good
looking if you happen to have that good
fortune and you can feel confident about
that and you don't have to try so hard
all right maybe that might work or maybe
you're really good at sports or maybe
you're a really good dancer or you're a
really great singer but it's based on
something real you have a skill you have
something that separates you you have
something that you can do that you can
accomplish because when you're 21 it's
hard to have those you know I look back
on myself when I was that age I had
nothing no wonder I got rejected you
know
um
so it comes from what you do in life
okay the the finest sense of confidence
is actually creating things and having
success and meeting goals and achieving
things and having a record of that you
know and maybe what goes with that is
having some money but it's not
necessarily because you don't have to
have a lot of money and you don't have
to be good looking to seduce that's a
myth that I try to explode in The Art of
Seduction some of the greatest seducers
male and female were not good looking at
all it's about psychology and it's about
how you carry yourself
but the confidence comes from actually
what you can do not how you feel or what
you say well it is how you feel but the
feeling is based on things that you
actually can do skills that you have
that separate you that make you feel
really confident you know
so body language
yeah I find it fascinating that you know
there's quotes and things that say 80 of
our communication is non-verbal etc etc
um body language is so interesting to me
because again I think that's one of the
things that it's just impossibly hard to
fake I was reading you know a couple of
books on there was a phase when I was I
don't know 20 probably just after being
rejected all the time when I was maybe
22 where I started reading books from
pickup artists and they would obsess on
the topic of body language and one of
the things they'd say is and I I was
explaining this to my girlfriend a
couple of weeks ago that when when a man
is lower confidence when he's desperate
he does this thing called pecking in a
nightclub where he'll like lean in and
like shout in your ear and when he's
higher confidence he kind of leans out
and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in
small things like that subtleties like
that that intuitively we we're reading
and understanding and communicating and
Etc but someone that doesn't have the
confidence probably isn't even aware
that they do so when I reflect on my
rejection phase I think gosh my body
language must have been exuding
desperation and low status and low value
low self-esteem
what's your thoughts on body language
and
well um in my last book human nature I
wrote a whole chapter on it
I quoted the figure 95 but who knows
what it really is
the thing it is that um we evolved for
hundreds of thousands of years before
language existed right and our earliest
ancestors depended on the group for
their survival and getting along and
their powers came from observing other
people and their body language you could
read it so it's a skill that's wired
into US wired into our brains it's very
unique skill that we humans have it's
just that you don't learn that when
you're a child when you're two years old
you have it because your life depends on
it
you you have to see what if your mother
is is loving you or is or your father is
kind to you because if not you know you
could be abandoned your life depends on
it you're great at reading that and
children have are incredibly Adept at
picking up body language so if someone
is fake
if someone's an imposter they hate being
around children because children see
through you you know like you know like
radar right because they're so attuned
to it you had that skill when you were
very young but you lost it because you
became so oriented with words and you
became so self-absorbed that you're not
paying attention
but it's extremely important right so
the whole body is involved in it so
you've got to first stop thinking about
people's words so much because the one
thing about words unfortunately is
people can lie they can say whatever
they want they can say I love your
screenplay that was fantastic you were
great in that movie I thought you were
great senator they can say anything to
please to flatter to control you but
body language man it doesn't lie right
so I talk in that book about the eyes
and the fake smile the fake smile is
something you see every single day but
you're not paying attention it's like
it's kind of tight right it's like
yeah right but a real smile
you're the whole face gets animated and
there's a little crinkly thing here as
your face as you as it lights up and
your eyes light up it's it's hard to
even put into words but it's there you
can see it it's real it's not faked
knowing the difference between a fake
and a real smile is really important in
seduction in business or whatever to
know if someone is like yeah
I like that idea you know they don't
really they're saying that to please you
they actually hate your idea you master
that language you can start deciphering
all this people are giving you
the face you can disguise it a little
bit actors know that but you know what
you can't fake it's your voice
if you're nervous
not even the finest actors in the world
can fake that your voice betrays so many
things about you it betrays your
weakness it betrays your lack of
confidence or it portrays the other
quality Etc right so pay really
attention to the tone of people's voices
to how fast they talk people who talk
fast are very nervous someone who's
talked I know I'm probably talking a
little too fast too sorry uh my mind
races so I can't do that normally I
don't talk so fast but um
you know you talk slowly you have a
certain tone you have a certain
intonation that kind of reveals
confidence okay
body language posture you were talking
about pecking right when you go and look
at a meeting of people in in a business
meeting
you'll see all the employees kind of
leaning forward nervous and you'll see
the boss kind of leaning back arms for
us like this you know I'm the powerful
one you come to me I'm the leader I'm
the I'm the top dog or she it's a woman
I don't need to be like this I'm like
this body language reveals a lot about
leadership qualities
etc etc etc
you know if you go you're at a party
and you come up to someone that you're
meeting for the first time and they're
talking to you and you notice that their
feet are angling away from you
that means that they're not really
interest they're looking for any moment
to try and walk away and Escape they're
not really into you whereas their feet
are facing you they're engaged they want
to talk to you right
this is a whole art you can learn and
you can sit there and you can read it
and I talk about I give the story in
laws of human nature of a man named
Milton Erickson the founder of NLP and
hypnotherapy probably one of the most
brilliant psychologists who ever lived
when Milton Erickson was 19 years old or
so he had polio
he nearly died his entire body was
paralyzed the only thing he can move the
only muscle he could move with his
eyeballs now imagine that he was a young
man with a very active mind he can't
talk he can't do anything all they can
do is move his eyeballs a little bit
he was so bored can you imagine how
bored you'd be like that you can't read
you can't do anything people would come
in to visit him all they could do was
look at them and study them he became
the greatest reader of body language
ever in the history of mankind people
said it was he was almost had ESP he
could read everything about who they
were just by because he ended up
recovering he became a psychologist
because his life depended on developing
this skill he was going to just die from
sheer boredom if he didn't learn how to
read body language he mastered that
language much like somebody could Master
French and it's an incredibly powerful
language that I I can't emphasize enough
you know we can go about learning the
language of body language and I'm sure
that will help but
it's such a complex
um like VAR there's like a thousand
things with my body language at all
times like how I'm speaking my eyeballs
why where I'm looking my posture my arms
like am I crossing my arms am I crossing
my legs all of these things so the the
challenge of mastering all of that feels
a little bit overwhelming am I right in
assuming the easiest
the easier challenge to master is in
fact just like my sense of self
very well put because you know if you
feel confident if you feel secure if
you're not
all Inward and insecure and worried
about yourself it will naturally radiate
through your gestures yeah you don't
have to sit there and pay attention to
your fingers your arm your ears your
eyes it's just there it's natural so
yeah that is the solution so the two
game parts of the game it's your own
body language be aware that people are
judging you for that right and you can't
as you say
be monitoring everything or you'll drive
yourself crazy and you'll look very
weird right so the best solution is to
feel these certain things that are going
to radiate and to not give the fake
smile but when you really happy to just
show it and show your emotion that way
and the other side
which is more is I think really
important is learning other people's
body language and that can come from
study and is much more a logical thing
than than constantly thinking about
everything that you do
your next book
that I have here mastery
why did you write a book called mastery
well to be honest with you it came the
idea for it was around the year 2010
2009 I was getting a little worried that
people who were reading my books
particularly young men who were reading
power and seduction they cut they were
thinking that's all I need in life man I
just need to be a manipulator I just
need to play political games that's what
success is all about
and I was worried that you know
if if you don't understand how to make
something what's going to be the future
of mankind are bridges just going to
fall down our hotel is going to collapse
people don't know how to make things
anymore we don't know how to use our
hands anymore right so
being able to be good with people is
extremely important as a social animal
but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy
is being able to do things to be able to
have great skill and to be able to
create something and know how to master
a subject and to you know build
something that can last that's really
important and I'm feeling like because
young people this is back in 2010
imagine now
had this idea that everything comes
quick and easy because you can click
click click and things come to you that
everything in life should be that way
that we're becoming alienated from the
human brain how the human brain operates
because the human brain requires time if
you know how the human brain operates we
have what are called neural Pathways and
every time you repeat something a neural
pathway is created and strengthened and
strengthened and strengthened it's why
we get addicted to things but it's also
why we develop skill so if I'm sitting
there shooting free throws day in and
day out and day out my brain is wiring
it it's learning it it's learning that
motor skill that hand mind thing and
it's getting better and better and
better at it it takes time it takes
repetition to build those Pathways and I
explain in Mastery that you reach the
proverbial ten thousand hours which some
people dispute nowadays so it's just a
number it's not it's not a fact
you've spent so long learning something
that there's so many Pathways it's like
this amazing
inner landscape with all these
connections going on in your brain and
now you can be creative now you can come
up with things that nobody's ever
thought of you can play chess on a
higher level you can be Pele on soccer
or Lionel Messi making passes that no
one had ever seen before because you're
not having to think right you don't have
to think anymore your body just does
does what it wants
imagine twenty thousand hours which is
possible just people sometimes detain in
certain Fields you're almost like a
genius you're almost like superhuman
right
if you're someone who's so locked into
the internet to getting things instantly
you can't get past hundred hours let
alone ten thousand you're never going to
develop skill and you're going to find
life really really difficult for you so
I wrote the book because I was actually
deeply worried that we were losing a
part of of how the human brain operates
something Elemental part of our wisdom
the interesting three line between that
and the subject matter we've discussed
in power and seduction is that by
learning to master something you build
that sense of self-esteem and confidence
that we're looking for
um to to be good at the former topics
mentioned but
on the topic of um Mastery the first
chapter in this book and really the
first question a lot of people ask is
this question about finding your passion
and I've always had a difficult
relationship with this question because
it sometimes assumes that there's one of
them and that you have to go in search
of it somewhere in the first chapter of
your book you talk about discovering
your life task
um
why why is it important is it the same
thing is is finding your passion and
finding your life task the same thing no
I just recorded this yesterday uh on my
own podcast I went on a rant about how
it's not about passion it's not about
finding your passion I actually don't
like that word passion it kind of makes
me cringe because if you think about it
passion to succeed at anything requires
time and effort and boredom and tedium
so let's just say a simple example
you're learning to play the piano when
you first sit down at the piano you have
to play these really insipid Tunes it's
so boring you have to learn you know um
I forget what they call it a finger
exercises and scales on any instrument
you have to learn scales Etc it's
tedious man if you think it's got to be
passion forget it you're never going to
get far the thrill comes after a year of
playing the piano and you get better at
it and better and better and now it
starts coming fun then 10 years it's
more fun than 20 years it's fantastic
you know
I'm not I'm not trying to name drop here
but the other night I had dinner with
Stevie Wonder
it was the most amazing thing I ever
seen he's absolutely I wish I'd
interviewed him from my book speaking of
Genius you know and he's blind obviously
everybody knows but I was watching him
you perform for us we were they
prevented his recording studio I was
watching him play the piano and he's
blind
right and he's improvising and it's just
absolutely brilliant and amazing as I'm
seeing this I'm thinking I could see the
thousands of hours he's been putting in
just touching these keyboards and
knowing where the where the where the
keys are you know it was just mind mind
blowing how amazing it was that is the
power that the human brain naturally has
through hours and hours and hours of
effort that's how it works so you know
he didn't get there because it was
passion he got there because he was a
child prodigy at an age of 11. he was
assigned to a contract with Motown
records right
he was playing that as he was a kid hour
after hour after hour after hour he had
a love for the piano but it wasn't like
every time he sat down it had to be
passionate about it he had the patience
to put up with all of the boring stuff
okay so
you want to discover what you were meant
to what you have a connection to what
you have a love for right when you're a
child hopefully or when you're 18 or 19
or 20 that's the best time to discover
it all right
you decide and it doesn't have to be
something highfalutin or or worth uh you
know like intellectual you could be
great with your hands you could be great
with your body you could be great with
images and visuals you could be great
with words you could be great in many
different areas okay they're all equal
they're all great you as a child are
naturally so there's a book I always
recommend for people called the five
frames of Mind by Howard Gardner in
which he talks about the five forms of
intelligence that humans have
the each brain by genetically is wired
in One Direction or the other
you want to know that you want to feel
it inside of you
it's like a feeling it's not an
intellectual thing you feel when you're
doing sports that it's it's good it's a
natural thing it's what I'm meant for
when you're involved with words like I
was when I was eight years old you felt
right it felt like a natural fit I have
to follow this path when you're three or
four years old and it's music like
Stevie Wonder and you're hearing this in
your head wow that's that's it for me
right okay you feel it you feel this
connection all right now you fast
forward to when you're 18 or 19 years
old and you're having to make a career
choice
okay so I call that your 20s the most
important phase of your life that's
going to make or break you in some way
if you spend your 20s trying to learn
skill in something that connects to you
deeply
right
then things are going to happen to you
by the time you reach 30. you've
discovered your life's task it may not
be something so specific for me
it was writing words but I didn't know
what to write I tried novels I tried
journalism I tried theater I tried
screenwriting but you know it it gives
you a direction and you try and you try
and try and you know that's what you
were meant for that's what you were
destined for you you feel connected to
it you feel a love for it and so when it
comes time to do the tedious stuff
you're able to do it because you know in
the end it'll pay rewards you'll get
better and better at it and the
connection is so deep that to not do it
would be miserable so
you can't think of everything in life
having to be pleasurable and having to
be passionate it's going to be boredom
there's going to be tedium how do I deal
with it you have to feel a greater love
than just mere pleasure or passion it's
got to be something so deep within you
that to not do it will make you deeply
and happy for me not to write or be a
writer I don't think I'd be alive right
now I would have been so miserable I
would and so alienated from who I am so
that's what will get you through that's
that's what a life's task is when you
think about that in the book you talk
about the first phase which is you know
your apprenticeship on your journey to
mastery when you're in that
apprenticeship phase
you know when you're maybe early in your
career you're early on your journey to
becoming The Pianist the violinist the
podcast the entrepreneur whatever
what are the the most important things
to be
um selecting for as it relates to the
job you take the people you're around
that kind of thing like if there's a 23
year old listening to this that is a you
know an apprentice at a floristry shop
making bouquets of flour and they're
being offered five different jobs in the
industry of floristry which one should
they be looking at if they're in the
early steps of their apprenticeship very
easy question to answer thank you
um you want to look for the job that
offers you the most possibilities of
learning so if you're going to go to a
florist shop where there's only one
other person there it's like an
entrepreneur who started it and you're
going to be like their right hand man or
woman and you're going to learn and the
pay is half of what you could get at
this very fancy you could be of working
at the shop at some department store
where they'd pay you triple take the job
that pays one-third where you're going
to learn the most you're going to learn
about the business you're going to learn
from the ground up and you note is going
to be a level of excitement where
you know we might not survive another
few months we've got to work hard we've
got to be motivated we're all on the
same page here a lot of people when
they're 23 they grab the job with the
biggest paycheck and that's a mistake
because if you go to like a large large
firm
you're kind of lost you don't have as
much responsibility you suddenly have to
deal with all the political games the 48
Laws of Power you're not paying
attention you're not developing skills
as much you don't have as much
responsibility
take the job that has one half the
salary but you're responsible you're
going to be learning and it's up to you
that's that's the most important thing
you can do when you're at that point in
your life you say there's three steps in
that apprenticeship deep observation
is that what you mean when you say deep
observation you mean like being able to
observe the job happening would you mean
something else well it means that it
also means
so most people when they start a job
their whole their first impulses I've
got to impress people I've got to make
them like me that's that inward
Direction that's so deadly and seduction
and it's deadly in life you want to be
outer directed you want to observe the
codes and conventions of your field the
social codes you know what what's
acceptable behavior what's not
acceptable behavior the skills involved
the the various heuristics the various
things that you have to learn that
create skill you want to be a sponge
absorbing what's going on around you
what are the things you need to learn
what are the valuable skills what are
the things that aren't valuable what are
who are the people you need to avoid who
are the people you need to emulate
you're a laser you're just observing
everything around you and not worried
about yourself that's the proper that's
deep observation you talked about skill
there it's all well and good seeing
skills and knowing what skills are
important but acquiring those skills is
pointing two when you're in that
apprenticeship phase in life skills
acquisition and this kind of goes to
what you're saying with the working in a
florist shop next to the entrepreneur
you're going to be Hands-On you're going
to be doing which is also goes to what
you said earlier about parents and
children like putting them in situations
where they get to do stuff yeah a lot of
jobs don't offer that a lot of jobs
don't offer the difficulty the challenge
right
Hamilton is that well we call it
learning by doing and you see some
things play into how the human brain
operates that which that's what you want
I'd give the image in the in the
introduction to master the pardon the
alliteration here but the brain has a
grain to it
you want to work with that grain you
don't want to work against the grain
because it's counterproductive and one
of the grains of the brain sorry is
learning by doing when
you know flashback 300 000 years ago and
we're sitting there we're making tools
out of Bones out of wood Etc
the way the skill was passed on to other
people and didn't die with with one
generation was you watch this person
making the tool and then you watch them
and you learn and you imitated them
flash forward to the medieval period in
Europe where they had apprentices
apprenticeship schools seven years
you're learning masonry you're learning
carpentry you're learning whatever for
seven years you're sitting there
watching somebody make things and you're
doing it that's how the brain operates
you learn by doing not by thinking not
by thinking oh this is how things are
fitted in more you know with mortars etc
etc no am I doing it with my hands the
human the brain and the Hand have the
most connection of any part of our body
because so much of our power as a
species depended on our hands we don't
have much of that anymore but
learning by doing things with your hands
or making things is how the brain is
wired so you want to go with that grain
so you want to do things you want to
make things you want to be learning
through action not through just a lot of
talk and you know
as you might know the show's not
sponsored by Airbnb I can't count how
many times airbnbs have saved me when
I'm traveling around the world whether
it's you know recently when I went to
the Jungle in Bali or whether it's when
I'm staying here in the UK or going to
business in America but I can also think
of so many times where I've stayed in a
host's place on Airbnb and I've been sat
there wondering could my place be an
Airbnb as well and if it could be how
much could I earn it turns out you could
be sitting on an Airbnb gold mine
without even knowing about it maybe you
have a spare room in your house that
friends stay from time to time you could
Airbnb that space and make a significant
amount of money instead of letting it
stay empty that in-law that guest house
that Annex where your parents sometimes
stay you could Airbnb that and make some
extra income for yourself whether you
could just use some extra money to cover
some bills or for something a little bit
more fun your home might be worth a
little bit more than you think and you
can find out the answer to that question
by going to airbnb.co.uk host
one of the things that um that you
referenced at the start of this
conversation I think maybe even off
camera was in 2018 you had a stroke
um and that changed your life in a very
fundamental way
can you tell me what what happened and
how it's How it changed you
well
it was a terrifying experience
um you know I was in a coma
uh I emerged from it and suddenly
I'm somebody who's very physical I I
Sports was a huge part of my life I
would swim very long distances I love
mountain biking I I was doing all kinds
of um hiking it was extremely important
to me I was every single day I did
something physical to take my mind off
things Suddenly It's taken away from me
the left side of my body is basically
paralyzed I have no control over it to
this day I still have problems with it
can't swim
can't mountain bike can't hike right
I can't take my mind I can't think while
I'm taking a hike I can't type for a
rider that's not much fun
I had to deal with crap that I've never
had to deal with my life I had a pretty
easy time compared to this I had to
learn new life skills
when I'm already 62 years old you know
that is an easy stuff I don't want a
whine or complaint because people deal
with worse stuff all the time a lot of
people get cancer Etc
but it's this anybody who's had a stroke
knows what I'm talking about it's very
hard because you can practice and
practice and practice and practice hours
and hours of therapy I do over an hour
of therapy every day and you hardly
notice any results
the frustration you takes you 10 minutes
to tie your shoes you can't button your
your thing you have to get other people
to do that it's hard to cut food
you have to be patient you have to
accept this you have to find another way
of loving your life of accepting these
things that you took for granted before
and I tell people I look out my window
now where I'm writing and I see people
walking their dog and I put myself in
their shoes and go God
that must be so great just to walk your
dog down the street what a pleasurable
thing they don't realize it
you take it for granted now please don't
take it for granted understand that the
ability that you have now to run to walk
your dog to swim to type it can be taken
away from you and just appreciate your
life what you have because the things
that I love were taken away from me and
I wish they hadn't been so I've had to
adjust myself
you know when something like that
happens in life when you
when you are the the victim of an of a
tragedy or instance or circumstance or
something that happens there's often a
degree of unfairness surrounding it when
I when I read about that incident in
2018 I've read that it was a bee sting
that caused a clot that caused the
stroke
yeah I know it's actually I think a wasp
but if that wasp had been like moving
the wind a bit a little different and it
would move this way instead of this way
may not have had a stroke you know but I
can tell you this so
um in May of that year the the stroke
was in August in May I'd finished the
laws of human nature which took me five
years and when I finished that book
I felt like I was near death I was so
exhausted I was so drained you know my
wife was really worried about me because
I just looked really Haggard slowly I
kind of recovered but then
in July I went to New York
and I forgot my blood pressure
medication that I'd take so my blood
pressure was starting to rise and then I
came back to LA and I walked in this
park and the bee the wasp stung me here
and my whole chest turned red and it was
like the most unbearable feeling so I
went to the hospital they gave me this
drug called Prednisone to relieve the
itching prednisone increases your blood
pressure
and so when I ended up having the stroke
the blood clot it was right where the
wasp sting was so the neurologist said
probably all this cholesterol was
released from that drugs that from that
wasp being here and that's where the
blood clot occurred okay but there were
all these other circumstances that kind
of led to it a kind of a perfect storm
and maybe if I hadn't had that wasp
sting it would have happened four months
later under different circumstances and
I would have died because what happened
was I was driving my car when I got my
stroke my wife was in the other seat she
saw
something really strange going on my
face I didn't notice it she forced me to
pull over the side of the road
90 of the time I'm alone I'm swimming
I'm hiking I'm driving could have
happened four months from then
she wouldn't be there I'd be dead right
now so I can't really think in terms of
oh if that wasp had been diverted it
would be a good feeling but it's too
painful for me to imagine I like to
think of fortunately someone was there
who saved my life because it could have
very well happen four months from then
because I my body was worn down and
something much worse could have happened
that that Journey you described of
having to rebuild and relearn and re
redesign your life it's we've talked
about the topic of power so much in this
conversation in that moment it sounds
like your power to some degree had been
taken from you
you know um
you you learn like at least for me when
I looked at people I Look to people
differently after my stroke
I had more empathy for them I'm normally
an empathetic person but I was looking
at people in the pandemic who got long
covered who were having Strokes or were
having terrible circumstances or when I
look at people who are disabled because
I'm essentially disabled now
I understand them I and and also the
other thing is when I look at people who
are really poor
um who are struggling in life
they feel really dependent and helpless
I felt that physically I don't feel that
materially because I don't have that
problem anymore thank God but I I have
more empathy I understand it not an
intellectual way but in a visceral
physical way that sensation of
I don't know where my food's coming from
I don't know what's going to happen the
next day I'm weak I'm dependent I'm
helpless it's miserable
I kind of understood that feeling now on
a on a different level
on a level that affected me personally
and it's a lot different than having it
affect you in an intellectual way
the phases in that journey to where you
are today the first phase after the
incident you wake up you realize that
your your life has changed what's what's
going on in your psychology what's going
on in your mind you talked about
helplessness and
to be honest with you what happened to
me was
right afterwards there was the level of
delusion in my mind I kept thinking well
in three months I'll be back at it I'll
be in six months I'll be swimming in a
year I'll be hiking again I deluded my I
wasn't aware of how hard the process was
and then six months eight months a year
down the road as I realized I was wrong
that's when the depression sat in that's
when it really started hitting me I
thought I'd be back here I am four years
on I thought it'd be back to my life but
I'm not
you know so that's what was the hardest
struggle was actually a year in there
and going
there's a phase where you kind of
plateau where you're not really
progressing anymore that's the worst
part of it I'm progressing now again
because I have a great therapist but
I had to deal with really bad depression
about a year a year and a half in when
it started realized this is my life man
I'm gonna always have this funny arm
that's Bowing in I'm going to be walking
like this
I I don't I never expected this in my
life so I've had to deal with that and
I've had to kind of find a way to not
let it get me down to find other
pleasures and joys in life Etc which I
have
how how do you find a way to not let it
get you down I'm thinking now about
people that are listening to this that
might be struggling with their own
subjective struggles in life they've
been they've lost their job they've you
know they've they have a disability
whatever it might be what are what are
the successful strategies you've
deployed to try and remain
I keep that peace of mind
well I don't know how much of it is
applicable because I'm at a phase of
life where I don't have material worries
you know and I could have had a kind of
stroke where my physical element would
have been untouched but my brain would
have been damaged which is another part
that would have been worse because I
wouldn't have been able to write another
book and I have a very active mind
um
so for me being able to write another
book is my salvation so when it's three
o'clock in the afternoon when I get down
to writing
it's the happiest moment of my life I
feel at peace I'm back to my work and I
love my work and I love what I'm writing
about it saved me a lot I do meditation
I've been meditating now for about 12
years I think more more than that every
morning it's a ritual I have to meditate
if I don't something is wrong and I've
never missed a day I can honestly say
and it it just calms me down it just
gives me a strength throughout the whole
day so I get up
seven o'clock you know the sun's usually
showing because it's Los Angeles and
um I'll go it's the morning
I'm greeting the morning I'm greeting
the sun it's like I'm in like I'm a you
know somebody four thousand years ago in
a tribe here's the sun it's it's a
miracle that there's even something like
that the birds are chirping I'm looking
at the Ivy the sky is blue
calm myself down
intrusive negative thoughts start
popping into my mind you didn't do this
you have a podcast today at two o'clock
Robert you want to do this that and the
other
I'd get rid of them I go calm down put
that away ground yourself and it's
helped immeasurably the other thing is
always keep in mind that there are
people who have it worse than you so I
don't want to feel sorry for I don't
like the sense of feeling sorry for
myself
in fact sometimes I turn it around and I
look at that person walking the dog or
jogging they go I actually feel sorry
for you because you're not aware of how
precarious life is you're not aware of
how this can be taken away from you
you're not aware of how precious it is
to just be alive and just to see the sky
and the birds so I feel better than you
in a way I turned it around I don't want
to feel sorry for myself the things
they're people who have it worse I read
in the newspaper all the time you know
cancer you're in Ukraine or I was
dealing a lot with people in in Iran
right now what they're dealing with I
don't have to deal with that kind of
crap like being in Iran and dealing with
that daily life how how horrifying you
know these are thoughts that take you
out of the moment where you're feeling
sorry for yourself and you're kind of
grateful for certain things so those are
some of the strategies I've had to kind
of create for myself
I find it so um I find it so
I guess powerful to hear those
strategies because we all get caught up
in
a narrow perspective and our own
subjective feelings that we're suffering
or that life is against us and then that
kind of torments us in many ways as
you've post-stroke in 2018
um is there anything else that you have
learned about the nature of Happiness
from from that incident that we that you
might not have known before that
incident that I might not fully
understand now
the things I heard you talk about are
the importance of a sense of purpose how
perspective and gratitude are Central to
are feelings of happiness but is there
any other observations you've had that
I'm just saying this from my own selfish
perspective because I want to know
well first of all I don't want to give
the impression
that I've solved everything so I'm a
work in progress I have moments where I
get so frustrated it's almost like I
have Tourette's Syndrome
like I can't you know I'm still four
years in and my arm is still like this
and I still can't brush my teeth if I
want I get very frustrated so
I'm getting better but it's still a work
in progress I don't want to give the
impression that I've somehow this I've
mastered it because it has mastered me I
have a long way to go but I'm getting a
lot better A lot better at it day to day
um
you know I don't know I think I've kind
of touched on everything only in the
sense of
what about connection you talked about
your wife yes he's helped me a lot
God bless her soul she's had to take
care of me you know and I was somebody
who's always prided myself for being
independent
I was trapped that was another thing
that was taken away from me I was
traveling around the world doing book
tours going to book festivals doing
interviews doing consulting in various
different countries
I could still travel but it requires a
lot more so I lost my Independence I had
to have somebody help me with food every
single day I need things being done for
me and I I feel terrible that you know
she's been put in that position but
she's been very gracious about it and
she understands she has a lot of empathy
because she knows what I've lost so
having somebody in your life if I were
alone I couldn't deal with it man I
wouldn't have been able to deal with it
it just would have been too much for me
it would have been too depressing that
depression that sucks after a year would
have leveled me it just I couldn't have
made it
so that's an incredibly important aspect
just appreciating
the little things in life that I just
you know it's a cliche and I hate saying
cliches
but
um you know I have that feeling almost
every day where i'm looking at somebody
going
man that must be I'm like riding my bike
and I'm seeing somebody just sitting in
a park reading a book on a bench and I'm
going God that is so much fun just to be
able to do that I can't do that anymore
but I put myself in their body the
little things in life that you take for
granted are some filled with so much
happiness and joy that you're not
thinking about if that person's sitting
on a bench reading that book only
realized what this person riding by
thinks maybe they wouldn't take it for
granted so some of those little things
that you don't think about
have incredible importance at least to
me having lost them
so I don't know if I'm
I wish I had something better but no I
think I could only come from my own
experience I can't make it up
your books tend to focus on the nature
of The Human Condition
what how we are as humans For Better or
For Worse and it was it was interesting
because as you were talking over several
topics when you're talking about
seduction and the full weight loss of
power and mastery
it was a part of me that's you know
that started to feel a little bit I
don't know feel the darkness that is
innate within humans a bit a bit too
much maybe
that we're a little bit too contrived
and manipulative and conniving and
whatever else and I was thinking do I
really like humans you know I'm one of
them I don't I'm very conscious of
trying to separate myself I hear people
doing interviews when they're talking
about society and I always think you are
Society I am human I am I'm all of the
things you've described in many many
ways but has your journey of learning
about humans and Human Nature Made you
personally more loving towards humans
more optimistic about the human race or
has it made you the the opposite
honestly well it's maybe more loving but
it hasn't made me more optimistic okay
um you know there's so many things that
are
seem to be going awry in the world today
now I happen to be um the form of
meditation I do is Zen meditation and in
Zen meditation there's this idea of
what's called the tathagata which means
it was it was another name for Buddha
and it means things as they are and one
thing you meditate is
the world is in good or bad or ugly or
evil or unjust it just is things just
are this is just the way the world is
this is the karmic chain the wheel of
Dharma that's been going on for
thousands of years it just is it's just
the State of Affairs
it's you're discriminating your mind
it's your mind that creates all of these
things let go of that and you can
connect to the way the world is without
judging it and it becomes this very
beautiful place and so I a part of me
wants to think of this is just the way
things are but a part of me goes this
isn't good the way things are and I hope
their change
so knowing human nature and knowing how
human nature tends to twist things how
whenever we invent a new piece of
technology it could be the telephone it
could be the television it could be the
internet it could be cryptocurrency or
it could be
you know AI
it tends to twist and darken and degrade
and and pervert anything that was once
maybe in beautiful or interesting it
makes me worried about the future
so there I turned pessimistic and I'm
worried but then
I always think that there's hope with
young people and here I'm spouting
another cliche down I'm going to shoot
myself after this interview but
I feel like when I was young I was angry
about things I didn't like the way the
world was it was Ronald Reagan and
Margaret Thatcher and yuppies and ugly
you know values I didn't have and I
thought there's something wrong I was
angry and I wanted to change it
young people are still like that and I
think a lot of young people gen Z or
whatever the next one is whatever they
call them I don't know yet
um
they're growing up in a world that isn't
healthy that isn't right and when you're
young you have all these energy all this
physicality and you you don't like it
you don't feel comfortable in it and I
know a lot of young people don't feel
comfortable and at some point they're
going to Rebel
and they're going to say I'm tired of
all this virtuality I want something
real I want some I want real experiences
that Spirit of rebellion that I see
seeds of and signs of gives me hope and
I hope that it continues because I
remember once I had a dream probably the
most memorable dream I ever had
it was maybe about 15 years ago or so
and I dreamed that I was there in the
year 2072 or something like that I was
walking around the year 2072 it was the
streets of New York I was going wow
everybody looks so happy humans finally
figured out how to
do well in this world they figured out
how to what matters There's Hope in this
world that was my moment in that dream
this is always sort of stuck with me
maybe that will happen maybe it won't I
don't know I'm not Nostradamus but
you know so this I struggle with that I
struggle with part of me is pessimistic
and part of me seeks Seeds of Hope
particularly in young people and I
really really really wish they figure it
out because my generation Generations
before we've kind of screwed this world
over things aren't good right now and
I'm hoping that Spirit of rebellion that
young energy will kind of come and kick
the Apple card and say screw all this we
want a different world
we have a closing tradition on this
podcast where the last guest asks a
question for the next guest not knowing
who they're going to ask it for and the
question that's been left for you to
answer is
in adult life
when
were you most happy and why
and then brackets it says are you this
way now and if not why
well
I have to say the happiest moment of my
life
came at that turning point when I was 38
or so
and I was given the opportunity to write
the 48 Laws of Power
and it came out
and my life had changed and so the
contrast
from being
in a in a small apartment
rather poor rather desperate where
people were beginning to worry about me
and suddenly things were clicking
together and I was having fun and I was
having all these adventures and I had
reasonable out of money the shift was so
radical and so dramatic that it was
extremely exciting you know and it was
almost like a drug high it was pretty
damn intoxicating
um I don't have that now because it's 25
years ago and I'm kind of still riding
off of that and and the high is worn off
but I can remember in my body how
depressed I was and that feeling and I
never lose it I'm very grateful for what
I have because I know
it could have turned out very
differently
so I still feel that initial happiness
because I know
if you have success when you're 24
you're not ready for it you don't
realize how evanescent it could be how
it can disappear and how important it is
I never had that because I struggled for
so long and so many bad jobs so
the happiness the Euphoria isn't the
same it's not the same intensity but I'm
still riding on that wave because I know
where I was before it happened and it's
been an amazing journey
you know my wife who's been there for it
with it goes can you believe that you
were having dinner with Stevie Wonder
when you were 12 years old you told me
Robert that was the first album you ever
bought was intervisions and what would
you told yourself when you were 12 years
old this is what's happening whoa I
would have I would have flipped out it's
been an amazing journey I can't I can't
complain
my whining complaint card was taken away
from me in 1998 when I published that
book and so I'm still feeling I'm still
feeling the
the last vestiges of that Euphoria from
back then
Robert thank you thank you so much I've
um I've been a tremendous fan of your
work for what feels like forever in my
life and um your your wisdom your your
willingness to confront difficult
subject matter that a lot of people
would avoid because there is darkness in
laced in a lot of the subject matter
that you've written about in some of
your books but it is very
it's very human important as you say
objectively neutral darkness that just
is and for you to confront that over and
over again and your work is is it makes
it some of the most important work I
think anyone could do because it's the
work that a lot of us avoid but your
vulnerability and openness today as well
have been like a shot at my ass in terms
of gratitude
um and the importance of perception
um as it relates to our happiness and
our sense of a sense of self so thank
you so much I've really enjoyed this
conversation more than I could express
in words thank you so much Stephen it
was a great interview I was telling me
that uh I've done thousands of these
podcasts and I know I can tell I've done
my ten thousand hours I can tell
a great interviewer from a mediocre
interview and you're on that Elite
category wow because you ask really
great questions and you're a great
listener and it's been really fun so
thank you so much I appreciate the
opportunity means a lot to me thank you
Robert okay you're welcome
quick one as you guys know we're lucky
enough to have blue jeans as a sponsor
and supporter of this podcast for anyone
that doesn't know blue jeans is an
online video conferencing tool that
allows you to have slick fast good
quality online meetings without any of
those glitches that you'd normally find
with other meeting online providers you
know the ones I'm talking about and they
have a new feature called Blue Jeans
basic which I wanted to tell you about
blue jeans basic is essentially a free
version of their top quality video
conferencing and that means that you get
immersive video experiences you get that
super high quality super easy and zero
fuss experience and apart from zero time
limits on meetings and calls it also
comes with High Fidelity audio and video
including Dolby voice they also have
expertise grade security so you can
collaborate with confidence it's so
smooth that it's quite literally changed
the game for myself and my team without
compromising quality at all so if you'd
like to check them out search
bluejeans.com and let me know how you
get on over the last couple of how long
maybe four months I've been changing my
diet shall I say many of you have really
been paying attention to this podcast
will know why I've sat here with some
incredible Health experts and one of the
things that's really come through for me
which has caused a big change in my life
is the need for us to have these
superfoods these green Foods these
vegetables and then a company I love so
much and a company I'm an investor in
and then a company that sponsor this
podcast and I'm on the board of recently
announced a new product which absolutely
spoke to exactly where I was in my life
and that is huel and they announced
Daily Greens Daily Greens is a product
that contains 91 superfoods nutrients
and plant-based ingredients which helps
me meet that dietary requirement with
the convenience that hewell always
offers
unfortunately it's only currently
available in the US but I hope I pray
that it'll be with you guys in the UK
too so if you're in the US check it out
it's an incredible product I've been
having it here in La for the last couple
of weeks and it's a game changer
hahaha
[Music]
[Music]