hi everyone I'm Johanna pen from the
creative pen comm and today i'm here
with douglas smith hi Doug hey Joanne
thanks for having me on no worries just
a little introduction Douglas is a multi
award-winning Canadian author of novels
short stories and nonfiction described
by library journal as one of Canada's
most original writers of speculative
fiction he's also the author of playing
the short game how to market and sell
short fiction which is what we're
talking about today very exciting
so Doug tell us a bit more about you and
your writing journey a little potted
history if you like yeah sure so I guess
appropriately enough I did start by
writing short fiction I started in the
late 1990s I think I spent far too many
months writing trying to write my very
first short story and I joined a writing
group which was sort of the incentive
for me to actually get to a final draft
and I sent out my my very first short
story I think in January the next year
and I sold it about a year later so and
that that year was sort of just write
write writes and submit which is one of
the messages in my book but I then I
started getting more sales I started
getting personal rejections which sounds
weird but it actually is a form of
validation for beginning writers it
feels so good that someone actually send
you something personal and I think what
I found when I started writing was it
was just important to get that feedback
that validation and I just focus on
short fiction for probably the first 10
years and I found that my stories are
getting longer and longer and longer and
I figured that was my subconscious
trying to tell me maybe it's time I
moved to a novel so about the 10 year
mark I actually published over the next
two years I published three collections
one was in French we can talk about that
later foreign language for short fiction
and I started on my first novel and and
now I will dabble in short fiction I'm
pretty well focusing my my new words are
going into novels and I'm have one novel
Wow
and I'm about two-thirds the way through
urban fantasy trilogy so yeah well
that's right in there yeah fantastic so
let's just get some definitions clear
and so what what is a short story or
short fiction versus a novella versus a
novel sure so I'm not sure how general
these terms are but in speculative
fiction certainly for the awards things
like the Hugo on the Nebula etc most of
the awards follow these guidelines a
short story is under 7,500 words or
maybe 7,500 words and under but anyway
it's that's the limit of a short story
if you're between that and I think it's
17,500 words that is called a novel wet
and that tended to be where I found most
of my stories are ending up and the
longer the story we can talk about this
weight or - the longer the story the
harder it is to sell and there's very
clear business reasons for editors for
that and then a novella goes from 17,500
words up to 40,000 words so technically
a novel was anything over 40,000 words
but most publishers traditional or small
press are not going to publish anything
that's short you've you've really got to
get up - it varies whether it's why a or
middle-grade but for adult fiction you
pretty well have to be at least 80,000
to to sell yeah and it's funny you say
that because this is one of the Irate my
most recent novel math of shadows I had
thought I might submit it to a
traditional publisher because it's a new
genre for me and then it came in at
60,000 and for me that's about normal
because I write really short and then I
was like I can't be bothered adding
20,000 yeah great
and I'm Dean Wesley Smith who we both
know he writes around 60,000 as well I
think so it is interesting how that
changes but um why so just coming back
to you and short fiction why why do you
you or why did you focus so hard on
short fiction like what is it about
short fiction that lovers of the genre
or the form I guess love I guess you
know I started out
I was introduced to two speculative
fiction as a kid I read a lot of short
stories there I I just found as a reader
it was a great way to discover new new
writers the anthologies they used to be
you know there were so many annual
anthologies of the best of could be best
of spaced stories or you know certain
service free could be anything and one I
love the the way that an author could
tell what seemed like a complete
historian so few words but it's a great
way to find new writers like you've read
a story oh that's fantastic
and you you chased down their other work
as a writer I guess one of the reasons I
started with short fiction I think when
you start out you're you're not sure you
can write you're not sure that you're
ever gonna sell anything that you're
right so to me it was it was a good way
to to kind of test the waters it's a
great way to learn your craft and if
you've written short fiction for a
number of years it doesn't mean you have
everything in your writers toolbox to
become a novel writer but you've got a
lot of the necessary tools so it is a
good way to learn the craft of fiction a
point of view and and pacing and
dialogue and setting and and just ever
so many so I just I wanted to try to
become a writer in a way also that I
could test the waters you find out if
you're writing at a publishable level
faster as a short fiction writer because
let's say we use you know the 80,000
novel weird novel again so that that's
probably anywhere from 16 to 20 pieces
of short fiction that you could write if
you wrote 80,000 words so you can try a
lot of different styles and and you know
narrative structures and and formats and
different points of view and multiple
points of view etc you can try a lot of
different things in the way of
experimenting with forms of storytelling
in 16 to 20 short story
in a novel you're pretty well you're
stuck with whatever a narrative
structure you've you've selected for
that particular novel so I think you can
learn how to write a lot faster the
basic core capabilities you need if
you're writing short fiction then in a
novel and the other benefit is as you
finish a story you send it out to market
and you start to get feedback and if
it's rejection rejection rejection
rejection you probably need to keep
writing you haven't you haven't
developed your craft enough although we
can talk more about you know what's a
reasonable number of rejections later on
but as I said when I started writing you
know I got a I got my first sale on a
year and I was getting personal
rejections and that is a form of
feedback rejections are a form of
feedback especially when they start to
get a little more focused and actually
make comments on the story way to to get
into fiction writing yeah absolutely and
but you're not just a short story writer
you are a multi award-winning short
story writer and I didn't you know kind
of want out you know sort of honing in
on the craft what what are your do you
have any sort of tips for taking it up
to that level because you know did you
notice is it just literally were a
number of words or experience or do you
feel that there are certain types of
stories that win awards Wow
it's it's tough I mean I've
the only non-fiction book on writing
I've done is quite consciously on the
business side now the creative side I
think it's very hard to teach creative
writing and I I struggle with sort of
answering that III don't think you
should you know try to say analyze what
are the award-winning stories you can
certainly understand why they're good
and that helps your writing but I don't
think you should target oh I need to
write that kind of story to win an award
I think the the award-winning stories
tend to be you know beyond being
incredibly good well-written stories
they tend to be all over the map in
terms of the type of story er or subject
matter etc
probably the the key is more how do you
once you have your story and what you
think as a publishable form how you
market it because the stories that are
going to get award attention tend to be
the ones that are appearing in the top
professional markets they get more eyes
on them they get more the best of
editors looking at them for sure you
know anyone who's putting on a best-of
anthology for a year is always going to
look at the top pro markets the magazine
markets in the big in the anthologies
and maybe some of the major collections
so that's the key well we'll come back
to that but let me reframe that question
then - okay when you are when you have
an idea how do you know that that is a
good short story idea so for example
I've written a couple of short stories
but I've written far more novels of the
six thousand and when I have an idea I
Len look for ways to kind of slot that
into a longer form piece so what when
you get an idea around shorts or when
you used to write a lot more how do you
know it's a short idea you know rather
than something that would be a lot
bigger okay that yeah I preface my
remarks by saying you know every time I
think yeah it's 5,000 words it ends up
being ten thousand twelve thousand but
back to my why started novels I'd say
I'm a character writer so I tend to
start with a with a character are you
one of my favorite writers of all time
and the speculative fiction actually in
any any genre is Roger Zelazny of the
way to American writer he once said that
ideas tend to come to him as a character
an idea or an image and you know the
better the better stories were the ones
where you got two of them at once and
I'd have to say most of my ideas come in
one of those three forms but I know
whatever whatever the first kernel for a
story is until I know my character our
characters I can't start writing a story
so I view sort of my story arc is the
character arc or the characters arcs
as as they intersect so I look at that
and I say okay what what journey am I
going to take this character on what is
the initial problem that they're either
facing or have been thrown into and you
know what are the major events that are
going to occur before that character can
come to the end of that journey and
usually from that I can I can for a
short story I can say okay I've got I
don't have lines for stories anymore I
probably did at the start II can't
really remember but I can usually figure
out yeah that's these number of scenes
and typically that's probably gonna be
somewhere in a 3,000 words story or an
8,000 words story so I guess that comes
with experience and then when I started
writing novels interestingly enough I
had the same problem my first draft my
first novel was a hundred and sixty
thousand words
ended up being down under 120 but still
fairly long I think the more you write
and this is another reason I'd strongly
suggest people if they're thinking of
getting into creative writing to start
with short stories we stride for a year
because you do get an idea of after
you've tried to write stories and you
have to finish them that's the other
best piece of advice I think that's a
Neil Gaiman favorite piece of advice you
have to finish what you're right because
then you really do understand what a
story is and whether what you've written
is a story the more you do that you you
get a feel for that idea yeah that's
short story that's not novel at length
that's wow that could be huge sometimes
when you start a short story you find
that well I could go this way I could do
this I could do this and it might grow
into a novel idea the other advantage I
found in short fiction is that it's a
great way to explore novel ideas
my very first short story I ended up I
revisited that set of characters five
years later for the novel and when you
get to the point where you're marketing
the novel it's really good to have a
short story that is the preface the
prequel to it to a novel to so short
fiction is another good way to explore
ideas for short for longer works like
novels
and also give you marketing tools so I'm
not sure if I directly answered your
question I just I think my only answer
is start with short fiction and you'll
really get an understanding after you've
written a few you know probably at least
a dozen when you do get an idea you'll
have a better feel for whether this is
is a short short story or a novel ladder
a novel are maybe even something you
could grow into a novel okay cool
so let's then talk about the markets for
short fiction because you it used to be
very clear like you said you would write
a short story you would mail it to
whichever magazine or editor and you
would get a rejection or it might get
published but now you know there's not
just print magazines there's digital
online magazines there's Indies doing
you know self-publishing short fiction
there are it seems like the-- there's an
explosion in possibilities for short
fiction so how do we know what is a good
market like you mentioned a pro market
versus just another marketing mechanism
I guess sure so I might I might have to
get a bit into licensing of rights here
but my so I hope I'm not taking this too
much out of sequence but it's hard to
talk about where you should send your
story first when when I haven't
discussed rights so I think the most
important thing for for writers to to
learn when they're beginning is
understanding the rights that you have
to the intellectual property you're
creating your story and the most
important thing to know is that when
you're when you're selling a story
you're not actually selling it when a
publisher wants to buy a story and
publish your story there
they're going to be a licensing a
certain set of rights from you for a
certain period of time and the publisher
will try to get as many rights as
possible for as low a price as possible
and you as an author in a friendly
business you know negotiation mode
should be trying to give them as few
rights as possible for its good price as
possible you usually can't negotiate
rates on short stories but sometimes you
will encounter situations where
a publisher is asking for more rights
than they need rights are you know if
it's a print magazine they just need
print rights if they're asking for
electronic rights you can ask for that
to be removed because it does those
possibly limit some of your future
markets for reselling the story but the
most important right is what I call the
occurrence rights and the very first
time you sell story you are selling
first rights you can only sell first
rights once that may seem obvious but a
lot of writers don't understand that and
first rights are very valuable because
they can only be sold once so because it
can only be sold once you should be
trying to sell your first rights to a
story to the best possible market that
you can and when I say best possible
market I go by the science fiction
writers and fantasy writers of America
guidelines which is Pro market means
you're paying they're paying six cents
us a word or more which isn't great I
mean you're not going to get rich at six
cents a word but it does define most of
the top professional markets so my first
rule is when you're selecting a market
start at the top make sure you find a
professional market a market that has
good cachet so they appear on award
lists a lot etc etc so that's the first
rule because flip it around let's say
you sell to a for the love market or or
for copies or for a semi-pro rate and
you submit to their and you sell it
you'll probably when you get that
acceptance letter your email you're
probably be very excited but you
probably your next thought might be wow
if they bought it what if you know what
if the next market I'll get about it or
what if you know what if that talk
market would have bought it maybe it's
that good and you'll never know you
can't send it to those markets anymore
because they don't take reprints or what
is called licensing second rights so the
top markets only want first rights in
other words they want to be the first
ones to publish your story so if you're
already published it in a semi pro
magazine you're not gonna
so it to a top market ever they don't do
reprints they don't license second
rights so my first piece of advice to
all beginning writers is when you start
to send your work out do your research
on the markets in your genre and that
send it to the top market so you figure
out what you want the top market to be
but there's there's a bunch that pay pro
rates and send it to them first and if
you're writing a lot of stories it
doesn't matter if they're taking three
months to get back to you you just send
it out to the next one when you get back
in and just keep sending all your
stories keep them in the mail is my main
piece of advice on this so that would be
and I've totally forgotten your original
question how you use how you start yes I
guess my question was like you've
defined there the top markets you know
those paying that you know they want
those first rights but I guess if people
are starting out it's unlikely they're
going to get I mean yes sure send it to
those and if you get a rejection maybe
look at other options and because many
of my listeners are self-publishing
there is there are a lot of digital-only
markets but there are also in these now
self-publishing to their audience so
writing short fiction and just
publishing you know a story on Kindle or
Kobo or wherever and sending it to their
list so not even going anywhere near the
markets so what are some of your
thoughts on on sort of other options for
stories and you know any sort of pros
and cons that you would consider so when
I wrote the book it was aimed at the
beginning writer who is starting as
short fiction so there there's no other
incentive for them when they're
marketing a story other than to sell
that story to the best market they can
in the author and you have perhaps you
know you've built a world you have
multiple novels in a particular universe
or around that set of characters I can
see the logic in putting out a short
story indie publishing it as sort of a
treat for your for your readers and
possibly as sort of a loss leader to
attract more readers to that world I can
see that but you know my what I'm
talking about in the book is someone who
is starting out as a
fiction writer and I'm recommending the
the road of starting with short stories
and marking them to traditional markets
I don't mean big publishers I mean the
traditional top magazines and
anthologies and I still recommend that
if you're starting out I strongly
strongly advise against indie publishing
or short fiction if you're just doing
that to get the story published you're
you're just throwing away your work in
my view you're not getting most of the
benefits you could get from selling to a
top professional market you're not going
to get award recognition or
consideration you're not going to build
a resume if you're submitting a novel to
even a small press later on and just
have a list of indie published short
fiction no one's going to be impressed
as opposed to if if you are submitting
to a publisher for a novel and you have
you know sales to some of the top Pro
magazines and anthologies and you've hit
award ballots etc that's not a guarantee
they're gonna buy your book but it's a
strong item in your favor that you're
gonna jump out of a slush pile and they
might actually read your novel faster
which actually is a good thing so you
just you don't you you're wasting the
the chance at a resume if if you're
starting out in short fiction so I'd say
indie published short stories one once
it's in your back list in other words
the rights are reverted to you I've done
that with all of mine or if you have an
other reason it fits into a marketing
strategy that you have for your longer
work your existing longer work yeah I
really like that advice it's funny I
mean I'm part of the reason I wanted to
talk to talk to you on the show was
because I think for a lot of indie
authors this is actually a great way to
you know to get things into traditional
markets in a less long you know it's
just it feels that getting an agent
getting a traditional publisher for a
novel these days is a minefield whereas
for what you're saying with short
fiction you don't need an agent right
you just submit direct to an area of a
magazine and then you do the contract
it's not a big contract it's quite
similar it's and and it just seems to
mean and then
like I buy a lot of anthologies now too
and then you are just you are being
discovered by new readers who then might
check out your novel whereas if you for
a novel it might take you a year to get
an agent a year to get a deal another
year before it's out or whatever so
would you see that that sort of hybrid
approach with short fiction is you know
can be good for the marketing aspect as
well as the sales yeah I obviously I'm
somewhat biased I think there can be
reasons to put a short story indie
without trying to sell at first but I'd
recommend that you do so again I the
only reason I'd put out a short story
directly Indy publish it is for example
you know when I have this trilogy of
novels published if I come up with some
short story ideas and I want to I
probably try to sell it to some of the
good markets but I might consider just
putting that story out directly maybe
for my mailing with subscribers and then
they you know that's a sort of a a hook
hopefully for them to get into the
series itself but other than that I
think they're you're just throwing away
too many possible benefits of selling to
the the tribute when I say traditional
short fiction markets it's totally it's
not like the big New York publishers
you're right you can we can talk about
how you can easily find markets for your
short stories you just email them now
you attach them you know to an email or
you go through a submit a bowl or some
sort of online submission system
the market uses you know you'll get
you'll get the email back with with
whether you've accepted or not it's just
so easy to do as you say the contracts
and I cover this in my book there are a
few things you need to look for I think
there's about eight different things I
focus on in the book for short fiction
contracts but really there's there's the
top three and that's you know what
rights are you giving away when do those
rights come back to you and a couple of
others which escape my mind but they're
easy they're they're not complex and if
if if you go through you know that
advice where you've done it a few times
you quickly would warn to what
look for an internet search action
contract anything as the right to come
back to you yeah and that's why I like
about the idea and you mentioned three
months for a sort of timeframe it would
that be a normal timeframe if people
were submitting would they expect to
hear back and within that timeframe it
sort of the average or put it another
way and I I had this from like Gardner
Dozois who's one more Hugo awards and
nebula awards for best editor than any
other editor he said it is appropriate
to query an editor if it's been more
than three months so three months was
pretty typical for the for the big
magazines you'll find some of the
wrought faster some of them a lot slower
I track submission rates there's online
tools that track the average response
rate response rate for four markets but
three months is pretty typical and if
you think wow that's gonna be a long
time I'm sitting around twiddling my
thumbs well no you're reading more
stories and you're sending that not to
so you know don't worry about it get it
get it in the mail or the email and just
move on to the next story when you
finish that submit it to you just you
just keep the stories out there in in
the submission process another one of my
recommendations is you know just keep it
in the mail it's an it's a numbers game
the the writer with the most stories in
front of the most markets is gonna is
got a win even though we're not
competing with each other but but the
point of view of progressing your
fiction career you're going to win a few
if you write a lot and keep them in
front of markets so I'm just on the
submission there and keeping things in
the mail and I mean you know I have a
big spreadsheet with just you know what
I have now intellectual property assets
which are mainly longer as I said but
into it you know with short stories and
also you know sometimes the title of a
short story if you have lots so imagine
you're forgetting like Dean talks about
finding you know all these short stories
that he wrote so do you have a
spreadsheet or do you you recommend
specific software or how are you
tracking all this different stuff sure
so yes you you as you start to submit
your stories you have to keep track of
where the
when you submitted them because you well
you just have to so I have a huge
spreadsheet and it's basically all the
markets down the left side on all my
stories across the top and then I have
codes I put in in terms of you know a
and M in a date means I mailed it on
that date an R and a date means it was
rejected on that date an S and a date
means it was sold on that date and then
I have lots of macros that summarize all
that stuff for me you you have to you
know you don't want to be submitting a
story again to a market that you know
rejected a two years ago or something
like that so yeah you do have to keep
track of them so I have a big
spreadsheet because I like spreadsheets
there are submission trackers that you
can use on on the web make sure that in
the context of also mentioning some of
the the market lists that are out there
there's a market list called the grinder
and I think the whole just gotta get on
on my screen the whole URL is the
grinder dot diabolical plots dot-com so
if you go there if you just just google
the grinder you're going to find that
website now it's a good market list it's
free so you can search for fiction short
fiction markets by genre and also has a
submission tracker that you can use
while we're on the topic of market lists
for science fiction and fantasy for
genre Rowan calm ral a.m. dot-com is
it's been around for since I started
writing it's free it's run by a writer
in Denmark he's an English writer but
was in Denmark called Roland Conley it's
still a great one and he breaks it out
by Pro markets and anthologies and
semi-pro you just need to look at Pro
and anthologies in my view if you take
my advice of starting at the top and
yeah but some
somehow you have to find a way to track
your submissions and the responses and
the sales and everything because you'll
you will get sales so yeah plan ahead so
and it's just interesting in the context
of the chain the changes in publishing
in general with with digital and the
rise of indie for example if it almost
feels as if the short story market has
stayed quite similar in in the fact that
the way of submission and the tracking
and you know that that's actually stayed
more stable than maybe the rest of
publishing do you is it do you see being
disrupted in any way or have new markets
emerged or other are those magazines
that the top still the ones that you've
been submitting to for years no I I have
a bunch of email folders of the
magazines that I've submitted to over
the years and I mean it's in the
hundreds and there aren't hundreds
around or if there are there they're
different ones so I what I saw in short
fiction when I started in the late 1990s
when you're submitting your you were
your mail it physically snail mailing or
your manuscript in the magazines were
print only and what you saw over the
next decade was a steady decline in the
number of those magazines because print
distribution in your production and
distribution is incredibly expensive and
as readership started dropping off you
know they many of them went out of
business and then what we've seen in
last I don't know five years probably
started at least five years ago a lot of
the magazine's finally embraced the you
know the e-book or the electronic
revolution so the ones that have stuck
around and a lot of the new ones that
you see coming up have electronic some
of them are only electronic for a lot of
the new ones are just online or you
might be able to purchase each issue as
an e-book etc and usually pretty well
all the the big Pro ones that I know of
have electronic editions so you know
it's reducing their cost I haven't tried
to buy a print magazine and
long time so I don't know if I walked
into some of the big stores around here
if I'd actually even be able to find
them but it's it's saved a lot of them
and what I've seen is an explosion in
the number of markets in paying markets
is probably more magazine markets now
paying pro rates than there was when I
started out so I personally think it
it's it's a very healthy market for for
short fiction is another reason I
encourage writers you're gonna find a
lot of options for for selling your work
you may you may find that you know when
you sell it and it's published you get
to look at it on online you don't have
something physical to hold in your hand
which always was cool when you got your
contributor copies but some some of them
are do both print and an electronic so
you may get a current copy as well I
think it's it's once again become a
thriving short fiction market fantastic
I'm just thinking for more questions
today so you mentioned French so what's
the I mean obviously you're Canadian so
maybe you're you you're bilingual know
what about licensing for languages is
that just something that people should
watch out for in contracts or you
mentioned that earlier what was the
thing you wanted to mention well
sometimes your when you sell a short
story a magazine may actually asks for
other language rights you if they're
only publishing in English you're you're
you have every right to kind of ask them
politely you know why why do you need
those rights I prefer to only give you
English rights some of them have a valid
reason the big magazines are Gaza mobs
and I think fantasy and science fiction
they have standing agreements with some
non-english magazines around the world
where those magazines will publish
selected stories from from the English
editions so that's about a reason but
usually they don't need to ask for
non-english rights if you keep your
foreign language rights what you can do
you can do it now I mean you if you have
a story you could send it to a French
magazine and without jeopardising
selling it in English because you're not
going to be giving away first English
rights you're gonna be licensing first
French language rights
what I do is that I submit I've sold in
get these much stuff I think it's 26
languages in 32 countries but what I do
is I wait until I've sold the story in
English and then I submit to foreign
language magazines and so you think of
it as submitting reprints that they
think of it as buying first rights but
from their point of view they're they're
more likely to want to buy a story from
you if it appeared in a top English
market it cuts down their editorial you
know the slush pile reading there
they're more likely that they're going
to be reading a good short story and it
sometimes helps by being able to put
that on their cover that you know this
first appeared in in analog or Asimov's
etc so it's a it's another market this
is another reason why I I stress to
writers that they have to understand the
licensing of their rights don't give
away rights you don't need to because if
you sold a story and they took all the
foreign language rights you can't submit
that to any foreign language market and
if you're looking for foreign language
markets by the way if you go to my
website I keep a foreign language market
West foreign meaning non English so
these are publications magazines
typically that you can submit to
directly around the world and they will
you don't have to write in the languages
submit in English they have translators
they will translate your story into
their language and a lot of them are
paying market so it's just like any
reprint mark and even in English it's
found money for you that's a possibility
to find other other readers for your
work also you might have some very cool
things that happen I I sold a story to a
French magazine and the editor was one
of my shapeshifter stories so you loved
that and he bought two more from me and
then there was a there's a great
Canadian magazine called Solaris and
they only take submissions in French
well I don't write in French but after
I'd sold to the French the France French
magazine I I was able to submit the
French translation to the Solaris
magazine and they actually published
those as well and one of those led to
one of my Awards so I got actually got
an award for a French story which is
pretty interesting yeah but even better
that that magazine editor in France came
back to me and said you know if I ever
have my small press a small press that I
won't put together I'd love to publish a
collection of your fantasy stories and
this was well 15 years ago and I thought
well that's very nice but I didn't think
anything would ever happen but in 2010
he established his own small press and
he reached out to me and and hence I now
have a French collection that was
published in France and and was
shortlisted for two awards in France and
that all came from you know submitting
one single short story to this editor
and way back when so it's a way to
broaden your readership and just cool
things may happen yeah it was it was a
collection and an award that I got from
submitting to one one France magazine
which is so cool and I think so often
indie authors now just focus on quite
established marketing techniques whereas
what's interesting with short stories is
you improve your craft you can get paid
multiple times and it can also be a
marketing mechanism to find readers who
are never going you're never going to
reach in any other way because they are
traditional market readers so I think
it's awesome and I always I always think
yes I'm gonna get into this with an eye
back away but you know you're helping me
I did want to ask one more question
about on writes is the audio because
interest you know we're in this
Renaissance of audio you and I doing a
podcast right now so you know what about
is it worth trying to license audio
rights or anthology audio rights or
podcast your own short fiction or you
know what are your thoughts on audio for
short fiction first of all good it's
it's it's another right and that's back
to rights again make sure when you're
signing a short story contract that they
don't grab audio rights because it's one
more thing that you can sell separately
and also a caveat is sometimes though
they might have an electronic version
like it might be a web-based magazine so
the last four electronic
I always in the contract add exclusion
excluding audio rights because audio is
electronic as well so let's say you've
done that and you have your your back
list of short fiction there are a lot of
audio markets out there certainly in
science fiction and fantasy
most of them pay and the cool thing
about them and is that they prefer
reprints most of them will prefer
reprints my point of view it's a way to
cut down on their slush pile editing if
they get something that's been published
in a top pro market they're gonna say
okay it's a good story
they'll so read it but they can they can
cut down a lot of their own you know the
work involved in going through a slush
pile and then if they buy it most of
them are paying some of them are 50
dollars some of them are a hundred
dollars they're usually mostly audience
audio markets I know are in that range
it still found money it's a story you've
already sold and it's quite cool hearing
someone read your story
the downside is I've had mostly good
experience with narrators I've had one
story that was just awful
just the narration was it was just awful
they tried doing different voices and
and yeah it didn't work but then I've
also had my most recent one was just
just a beautiful narration of the short
story that ties to my novel so it was
okay this is really good so it's fun I'd
say most cases you're gonna have a
wonderful experience it'll be really
cool to to point your readers to someone
narrating one of your stories and you
can find more more readers that way too
because there are people who prefer you
know audiobooks so they will subscribe
to these these podcast magazines as well
what about you what about reading them
yourself have you considered that I have
it it's very time-consuming I have not
got into doing like audiobook versions
of my collections or my novel because it
is very expensive if you do it yourself
it's a major time commitment
I don't know I have sort of I would have
the voice I would certainly know where
to put the emphasis and and and on on
the pros because it's my own short
fiction that's one thing you can miss
with it with a narrator but it's a huge
time commitment so if I do go that route
I'm probably going to go the route of
you number of options you can pay for a
narrator directly you can offer them the
royalties and you can do some where
things through something like audible
there's other other audio book
publishers where they will cover some
you know the technical skills of the
narration and the production yeah
fantastically now it's it's down my list
but I think for short fiction I I
definitely recommend that you submit to
audio markets once you've sold it
brilliant well we are out of time so
where can people find you and your books
and and stories and everything you do
online Smith writer all one word.com so
SMI thw RIT are calm so that that has
everything and and gives you links to
all of my fiction various retail outlets
where you can buy it subscribe to my
newsletter and subscribers get freebies
I give out a free ebook each month short
story ebook and you get lots of new
stuff and contests and you can get a
chance to be beta reader for novels
things like that and you know follow me
on Twitter that's also on my website
fantastic well thanks so much for your
time Doug that was great okay and thank
you Joanna for having me on it's just
been great appreciate it