so I don't know it necessary think you
need to sell we don't need to manipulate
you don't need to cajole people to do
anything what you do need to do is be
really good at communicating how you can
help people episode 103 this is the
business of architecture
hello architect nation I mean exceeds
and this is the show where each week I
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today is part two of my interview with
Richard Petrie the world's leading
architect marketing coach and trainer he
leads the training over at the
architects marketing academy you can
read more about that at architects
marketing.com in this episode you'll
discover how to attract and land better
clients projects and fees through the
power of effective communication and
with that here's today's show all right
Richard so welcome back to business of
architecture nice to be back
Richard I thought we'd focus these two
sessions so the last episode which is
1:02 in this episode 1:03 on the selling
part of architecture and sales and
selling is almost a swear word a curse
word in architecture what has been your
expense with that
oh absolutely look most architects a lot
of architects hate to be seen as a
salesperson and the irony is we're all
selling I mean we're all whether we're
providing accounting services or or even
them even doctors you know we're all
selling our services or products we sort
of need to get into it with
I need to get over that a little bit
ideally I think architects would like
just the world to come to them and see
their great work and their work would
speak for themselves and they would be
referred so much that they would never
have to do any selling at all the truth
of the matter is sometimes you're busier
than you can handle and other times you
need the work so you know we do need to
think about selling but a better way of
maybe saying it is we need to get better
at communication so I don't know in this
issue think you need to sell we don't
need to manipulate you don't need to
cajole people to do anything what you do
need to do is be really good at
communicating how you can help people
and that's what architects don't do
particularly well they talk about what
they do but we talked in the last one
about you know the defeat the benefit
buster and there was a video we pointed
people to but but you've got to be able
to communicate how you can help people
get what they want so they're good so
one is if you help people get what they
want they'll help you get what you want
and the other good saying is marketing
is nothing more than finding out what
people want and giving it to them so
marketing is nothing more than finance
you know architecture isn't nothing more
than finding out what people want and
giving it to them and we're not overly
good at finding one we're not very good
at finding out what people want that's
that's the first problem because we
don't ask very good questions and the
second thing is we're not very good at
it it's showing them how we can get them
what they want we get caught up in this
we get caught up and saying things which
which is not very clear because we're
worried about things so so we're trying
to do is hopefully we'll communicate
better well it's interesting you say
that because in one of my previous
episodes and what I've noticed is that
every episode I've had with architects
where they're they are excellent
communicators have had some great
architects on the show who really do
have that gift of communication and if
you look at their work it's actually
represented in the the kind of the
caliber and the kind of work that they
do Stuart Magruder who was on 6 or 7
months ago he's on the board of the AI
Los Angeles and he's rubbing shoulders
with a lot of real
influential architects down there and so
he's had the time to study in Richard
but I just say this to back up what you
said he said that in looking at these
architects that are successful the one
thing you sees that's in common is they
are all excellent communicators right
right
and and you know and the key that
commute when we talk about communicators
is people who are articulate but that's
not really what we're talking about
we're talking about being able to
communicate and convey how certain
things that you're proposing can change
someone's life
in line with the way they want it to be
changed so I guess that's what I'm
that's the subtle difference you know
fun actually
here's a good example so Marcus Moreno
who you knows know very well we're at
the Las Vegas conference and we're
talking about one of the big themes that
came through at the Vegas conference and
that and the Petrie method was around
communication is around helping you know
it actually architecture is around
helping people feel the way they want to
feel not just see what they want to see
but feel how they want to feel you know
whether it's I don't know what it is for
me or feet you know for other people but
but let's some people want to feel
inspired some people want to feel
relaxed some people want to feel safe
right and as an architect you've almost
got to be a bit of a psychologist you've
got to be a marriage counselor I've
heard that a lot you know but you've got
you've got to be a better psychologist
to find out what is driving this person
and what's important to them what's
their hot buttons not just a bit at a
logical superficial level around what do
you want you know how many bedrooms do
you want and you know what sort of space
do you want but at an emotional at an
emotional level and a father's death at
an emotional level so one really good
question we had we're dealing with
Marcus and we're trying to create a bit
of a pitch for him and help him
communicate his value and he was talking
I said well what do you do you know he
said oh you know and I could teach you
like writing a song that's you know it's
about feeling it's about movement it's
about rhythm it's about style and and we
skip that's right you know it is so so
I'm not sure how this links the needs
but but that's what he was saying I
thought was kind of
talking about it like a song but we'd
have one question we had from us if you
know we need to convert it away from
getting superficial briefing to getting
an emotional briefing at least having
some questions in there so one question
we designed for him was when he goes to
speak to someone is how do you want to
feel in this space you know when you
when you come home or when you come to
your office how do you want the space to
feel and another way of doing that I've
talking to that person's in you know
sort of deeper needs is have you ever
you know say I'm the architect and
you're my potential client in it go have
you ever walked into a space into a
happen to a house and looked around and
gone wow this place feels amazing right
and you probably say yeah I have
actually
it's okay well my job you know you tell
me about that feeling that inspired you
so much and you'll then tell me about
that okay that's great my job is to try
and give you that feeling in your house
now maybe we only have the budget of
that place that you saw you know maybe
we don't have you know we don't have the
budget we don't have the range to the
head but through good design we can
still create when you come home we can
still give people give you that feeling
and that's my job and on your project it
and some people will listen to this and
go that sounds kind of corny you know
what I don't care because it's not corny
because that is the essence of what
people want they want to feel a certain
way that says that's a secret to
anything not just architecture I use
this in other areas people have certain
ways they want to feel and if you can
understand how they want to feel and
then show them how by your designs you
can get into fuel that way you will you
will win so many more projects and you
will break down so many more doors and
you will wonder you will now you'll then
know why you had trouble closing deals
or winning projects in the past because
this was the piece you were missing
so what does not come naturally to a lot
of people Richard you have any insight
on that
I'm not really a man I think I think we
just we just were just trained as we get
older we're trained to get more
intellectual more and more analytical
and more and more logical so we deal on
a higher level when you get back to
dealing with someone's soul in someone's
heart and I think we lose that as kids
we're quite emotional as we kids we
learn to train that out of ourselves we
get more rational so mate maybe that's
why but when you go back to that place
then what you end up doing is connecting
with people on a deeper level and most
of the architects on this program you
have hit you have hit projects where
you've connected really deeply with your
client and you really felt that you're
on the same wavelength and you really
understood what they wanted what they
felt and what they what they wanted to
feel what you know and it was a great
project likewise I bet there are other
projects where you just felt you didn't
get that connection
you know you don't giving you a
description of what they wanted but and
you were desiring to that brief but
nothing was like two singers slightly
out of sync right and and that's the
difference I think when we're in sync
when we've got rapport with our clients
poor is an emotional connection right
and and and why do we lose it I don't
know but but when you're emotionally
connected to it to another peak human
being whether it's a client or a wife or
a husband then we're in sync and
everything works when we're not
emotionally connected then it did it
doesn't work so well this is very deeply
yeah well you know a couple weeks ago I
had Frank Hartmann on the show Frank
Harman is a just one of the I think one
of the world's greatest architects
living right now I mean he's he's been
mentored by Richard Meier and he does
just a pristine excellent work and he's
been going at it for a long time I think
he's in his maybe his early 70s now you
know it's a very experienced architect
but he said that one of the most
effective questions he asks people to
get at that as he said imagine a room
that you that you had when you were a
kid that you really like to be in and
then tell me about that room and why you
liked it yeah exactly it's coming in it
into the same place and if he's a great
architect and he's and and he's doing it
then everybody else should be doing it
too you know
that's a great way of doing it I mean
another way to ask that question is
imagine you've walked home and you've
worked into a house and you're so proud
of what you've got you know it's two
years down the track it's one year down
the track and you're really happy with
with what you're seeing it makes you
feel good and everyone else is pleased
with it and your husband's happy with
you you know what do you say because
it's the same question asked from
different perspective as to what you
know but those the deeper there's
slightly more we're looking for
different things we're not just saying
how many bedrooms do you want and you
know do you like curls and do you like
you know library yeah we're designing
for the heart and you've got it you've
got to include those logical things in
it as well but most people only include
those things and they leave and don't
forget to it's not how you want to feel
when you walk into a house you know
you're you're the architect your job is
to find out what they want to feel and
then use your skills to give them that
you know it's not about designing
something for yourself that you're proud
of it's about designing something which
really hits the mark for them and it may
be you know it'll be very specific it
won't be you can't generalize you've got
the Gowan and ask some and that's why
doing the diagnosis almost doing an
emotional diagnosis is very important
you've gotta be armed with good
questions to pull an out and the top
guys I believe they do have their
questions and that's part of what makes
them great Richard you wrote this great
told this great story in a recent blog
post on architects marketing about
Joshua Bell would you recount that story
for our listeners yeah it's a great it's
a great story I mean I I got it it was a
it was a ward winning journalist wrote
the full article on it um but there was
a Joshua Bell was one of the greatest
virtuoso their violinists who can play
the most intricate pieces and he is by
all accounts he was a child prodigy
he's now 30-something but when it comes
to playing the violin he's a genius
and they the Washington Times did an
experiment and and he had previously
about three weeks earlier sold out the
Boston Boston Philharmonic you know one
of the theaters average ticket price 100
dollars per seat and it was full you
couldn't get him so what they decided to
do was a little experiment to see if we
took him out of that environment and we
put him somewhere where he's completely
incognito what would happen what would
happen so they dress them up and some
baseball gear and a baseball cap they
gave him a they gave him you know a
place to play which was set in a cage
just outside a railway station during
rush hour and now they're worried about
little contingency this and what happens
if a big crowd forms and what happens
about this and too many people in the
air and it causes causes problems and
what about this they needn't have
bothered bothered Joshua Bell gets up
he's playing on a three million dollar
strip Stravinski are saying it wrong but
a three million dollar violin he opens
his case he starts to play you know what
happens over one hour period virtually
nothing the crowd just walks by a few
people slow down a couple of people stop
I think it was about seven people
stopped in total and there was a
thousand and ninety three people walked
past him they measured it all they went
and interviewed the people who did stop
and you know why did you why did you
stop and uh yeah it sounded quite nice
and a thousand people walk past any
sevens stopped he made $32 $32 in the in
in the hour one lady recognized him and
she actually they took this out she
actually gave him $20 money but he
didn't count that because she recognized
him but everybody who didn't recognize
him for that hat for that one hour he
was worth $32 now there's lots of moral
to all the lessons we can take from it
but the one I take from it is an alleged
Scheuer surrounded by symbols and and in
a story an issue have a story wrapped
around you like he does when he's at the
Boston Philharmonic theater
even Joshua Bell is only gonna win $32
now because you could be the best
violinist in the world and most of the
people in the world aren't good enough
to be able to identify that right I'd
put two people one one person knew he
was one person you he was a really good
violinist because that person was a
violinist and another person had C seen
him play so two people knew but the rest
them didn't know they just he's a basket
for all they knew now I think it's very
similar to being an architect right I am
NOT an architect I am not in a position
to know whether Enoch Sears is a great
architect or not I can I can look at the
nice pictures on this website
but then again everybody's got nice
pictures don't think website I don't
know you know you're all look good all
your pictures look good so how what am I
to know and so the lesson for architects
is you do need to think about the stuff
you do need to come up with what is your
story because without a story you're
just another architect you just you've
just a violinist playing in a cockade
you're thirty two dollars an hour with a
story you could be worth anything it
depends on how good your story is but
you need to think about what is your
story what it what makes you special
what make what's your superpower and
then make sure there is a story built
around you you know well let's bring
that back home to Mona Quinn and talk
about her story what story did as she
wrapped in and how did was that to her
benefit yeah sure so when we started
probably three years ago I said what do
you do I'm an architect okay do
specialize in a particular area it's not
really I'm a generalist okay I'm
thinking oh no right is there any
particular area you're really good at or
you really like you know I like doing
heritage buildings okay right let's
investigate that so we envisioned I go
there by the end of the meeting I did
look at a what I'd like you to do and
have a think about it go why never think
about it come back but I'd like to
position you it's New Zealand's leading
character home architect so that was the
type of heritage build and character
homes so you are Mona Queen New
Zealand's leading character home act
she says well I can't say that I see we
don't you know we can get other people
to set for you you know we can write it
down the third person we can we can
write books week it can be mentioned if
you get the paper anyway so we built out
that she was gonna be a New Zealand's
leading character home faculty and it
wasn't a lie
it's because no one else defines himself
as a character home specialist no one
else did
so therefore if she's the only one that
defines her and that she must be the
leading one she's the only one so we did
that well understood that's that's just
that's just unethical well no no she I
know what you're saying you know
speaking on behalf of everyone listening
yeah it's not only she is she is an
expert in that area just like you
listening to this thing you're an expert
in a particular area it's just that
you're underselling yourself by being
you know a vanilla architect I'm not
jack of all trades and master of none on
you know I'm a GP if you chose to
highlight and put a spotlight on the
areas where you are really good that are
true you are good no serious and call
yourself an expert or a leading a
leading an architect in this area
it is true right it's it's not true to
call you a jack you know just an average
architect that's not and some here is
you're really good so we've got the
spotlight on those areas we don't
exaggerate we don't if it's not true you
don't say it but we do pick the area
wagonette and we accentuate it anyway
before I was rudely interrupted so so
many ways so loner became known you know
shoot she got she got interviewed in the
paper because she was an expert in the
Syria she she got asked to attend events
about six weeks ago she sent me a text
saying gifts who's just been asked to be
on the heritage board for New Zealand
and that's probably not the exact words
but something like that so I texted back
Oh was it me she says no try again
so she's just been pulled on to this
board because she is getting the
reputation of being known as this person
know what it's not much fun over if she
was still the generalist and just doing
a bit of everything that would never
have happened she'd just be another
architect I come
having her fees questioned trying to win
deals but now she is she has official
authoritative positions but it's all
come from her taking a position taking a
start and accentuating the areas that
she's really good at and saying I'm
going to focus doing that type of work
and picking a back type of client and
that's where it all started now it's
sort of become the positioning has
become the position richer there's
something you call the power pyramid
tell us about that yep so yeah okay
there is another video on this one by
the way and we do have it on so maybe
the link to dig that up and put in the
show notes yeah I know it's on the AMA
act X marketing Academy blog there's a
video about that the permit is there are
certain levels of power in selling you
know when we're selling things at the
very bottom and so imagine a pyramid and
at the bottom is where there's not much
power and at the top is where these
these people at the pointing into the
permit they have a lot of power they
command high fees they are sought after
their revered they are there's not many
of them at the bottom there's lots of
them that tend to be slightly commodity
they get treated like a commodity and
and and and so I'll just take you
through you know what happens as you go
through the VIP so the very bottom
anyone who's selling themselves and gets
seen as a bit of a salesperson so
they're a commodity as we go up the next
the first level of going up the power
pyramid where you have more power and
can command higher fees and and all
those good things is when you become a
specialist okay so a general
practitioner is at the bottom a
specialist earns more is more respect
there's more revered and and can't be as
easily replaced you know well if you go
the GP and the GPS around holiday you
can see the locum they're easily
replaceable the specialist I have a
problem with my brain I have to wait for
the specialist to come back before he my
brain can get sawed out okay so at the
bottom we got generalist specialist is
the next level that you want to try and
get to then you become an authority
figure
so they might be the lecturer at the
University or the you know these
authority figures are sort of almost
they have the certifications okay but
you don't need to be have the
certifications to be a specialist and
then at the top of the pyramid are the
celebrities and they have culture we
value celebrity endorsement higher than
we value you know expert Authority
endorsement
so in psychologists you've got the the
normal psychologist then you've got the
specialist then you've got the head of
the Harvard you know psychological
department and then you've got dr. Phil
at the top the dr. Phil earns more than
all that put together he's not
necessarily any better but he's the
celebrity so our goal with Mona or with
anyone really is to at least move them
up to specialist phase and try and get
them seen as a bit of an authority in
their niche and and if you don't pick
too big a niche it's not that hard and
as you go up you get more sought after
you can charge higher fees people who
doing those type of projects are more
inclined to gravitate towards you
because you are seen as a bit of an
expert a bit of a specialist a bit of
authority you probably not going to
become a dr. Phil like a like a frank
gehry or someone like that you're
probably not going to be that but you
don't need to be you just want nice
projects good projects that you can work
on and earn a decent decent fee without
getting your fees squeezed all the time
well you need to be move up the pyramid
and be seen higher up and that's that's
what we did with Mona and that's what
really you should be trying to do to
yourself as well how does someone move
up that pyramid Richard okay we have to
we have to look at you're asking these
questions this takes a while to explain
go watch the video if I do a bad job
explaining it here go watch the video
but here let's have a go anyway what you
have to do is surround yourself well at
the bottom people at the bottom tend to
have sales brochures they tend to have
us websites which looks salesy that they
surround themselves which which screams
out that I'm just
Montee on I'm an architect I do any type
of work
yeah no job is too big nor too small you
know I do this I do this I do this I do
I do everything but I specialized
nothing the people hire out
whoever each cakes the market owns the
market so people higher up surround
themselves with symbols which is
consistent with people who are higher up
so salespeople have brochures at the
bottom
experts have books so I'll give you I'll
give you three or four things that
people at the top have deliberately used
to move themselves at the top they write
of a book they get themselves
interviewed like this today because I'm
being interviewed you're watching me and
Enoch talk about you know Delaware III
carry a certain more authority than if
I'd made you not run you up and said I'd
like to show you marking suicide cult
called you on the phone how would you
react to that probably not you know
he's calling me on the phone he can't be
any good but if you're watching me talk
here on this interview you immediately
think well enix interviewing him ynx one
of the top guys in the world for
business you know helping out with it
and he's interviewing Richard Petri I'm
at he must be good he must be good
so there's assumptions so you write a
book you get interviewed you do some PR
and get yourself in the paper those are
three quick and easy ways
is there anything off the top of my head
uh who you associate with so I don't say
name-dropping but but if you do get
yourself particularly in America where
it's such a celebrity culture you know
if you can be seen hanging out with with
someone famous and it's on your website
or maybe it's in your newsletter then
people will see that and and you will
the credibility will rub off on you a
little bit so by the way American is
just watching a video I might be getting
myself in deep water here but I was
watching no I might get in trouble if I
talked about this he might just are just
leave it but but but that's how you do
it and and by the way there's a lot of
different organizations that do this
like so this is what celebrities do this
it's a it's it's it's a manufactured
process to you know you can do it by
waiting for other people to anoint you
but you're often waiting a long time to
be anointed by your peers to say that
you are the you are the authority or
you're the expert you know if you went
it's not only our interest to do that so
you have to do it yourself and to be a
lot of people I know listening to this
will be too scared I don't want to
promote myself and all that type of
thing it seems own ethical when it seems
okay great yeah yes but that's what it's
done that's what celebrities do it's
what it's what actors do it's what all
sorts of people and all different
professions not just architecture do to
move up the pyramid and that's you know
it's sort of how you play the game and
you know if you're too scared to do it
write a book or position yourself as an
expert then a limit you big-time well
Richard you mean you're successful guy
you're the world's leading architect
marketing coach but something people
don't know about you is that in the past
you've competed at the highest levels of
professional sports in New Zealand as a
professional cricket player and
something that you shared with me that I
learned from in something that I'm
seeing the more and more lessons of
success that I learned about how to be
successful is a lot of it deals with
mindset oh yes a lot of it I mean maybe
eight percent so you know this two parts
is the mechanics of what you need to do
you did right there's the mechanics of
what you need to do and then there's the
mindset you need to adopt so someone
little maybe way of understanding this
or explaining it that might help people
is as he was saying I heard once I don't
even know where it came from and I don't
even know who said it but it's if you
want to be a champion you need to think
like one first okay so if you want to be
a champion or you want to be a you know
in a leading architect or enough you
know the best in your field you need to
think like that person first so this was
a thing I adopted when I was oh when I
said I was struggling as a sports person
I wasn't really going up the scales I
got plateaued and I got stuck and I
thought to myself you know I really need
to go to the next level but it it wasn't
motivation it was stopping me I was
highly motivated but but I couldn't get
through the Nikki stock
I wasn't being selected for higher teams
and it wasn't going anywhere and then I
started to adopt this thing if I if I
want to be a first-class cricket or an
international cricketer and play this
hot I've got to think like that player
first so I started to sit there and
think okay if I was you know the next
NRI that meeting was called first class
if I'm a first-class cricket how would I
think what would I believe how what
would I think about training what would
I think about you know all the hard work
and when it got tough for when it got
hard and when everyone else is wanting
to give up what would I think then and I
sort of reverse-engineer it back for our
to start with I don't know but then I
sort of thought I put together I'd need
to think this and I'd need to go for
runs when everyone else is going out
drinking and I'd need to I'd need to do
this and I need to do that and I need to
enjoy hard work and I'd need to enjoy
training so I trained myself to think
that way first and and what tends to
happen is there's a lag between reality
and your mind if you can lift your mind
up to a certain level and hold the faith
and keep keep seeing life as you want it
to be and keep seeing yourself as you
want it to be life is a funny way of
catching up to you but there is a delay
you know there is that faith gap that
you do need to stick with it so if I was
a you know this as an architect earning
fifty thousand I wanted to earn 100
you've got to train yourself to think
like an architect who earns $100,000 a
year and I don't know what that is for
you but you have to know what it as phew
and then you have to train yourself to
think that way and and life is a funny
way of catching up so that's what I did
and I just did it I just took myself out
how do I think of us here how are the
guys there and I think that's what all
top sports people who make it and and
anyone who successfully anything I
believe that is what they intuitively
tend to do they tend to take their mind
there first and the reality of the
situation then there's a little lag time
and they have to stick with it and they
have to maintain their faith but there
is a delay and they do life catches up
and then they have to think to the next
level and the next and the next there's
a marketer who I like listening to he
talks about head trash and I know that
I've had a lot of head trash myself and
you know it's only recently click
from you Richard in the past couple
years I used to think that was a lot of
fufu you know all this personal
development stuff and visualization and
thinking and you know imagining yourself
there ya know stiff it's definitely not
but but you even look you know you it's
it's everywhere the stuff you look at
someone like Muhammad Ali did he
believed he was good even before he was
you know he the way he talked in the way
he thought I know he was brash and all
that type of stuff but you could see he
had trained himself before he even
fought Sonny Liston he had trained
himself to believe he was the greatest
he had trained himself to overcome all
the obstacles he saw himself as the best
and you see it again again now the other
interesting thing and I'm not I'm not
overly religious or anything like that
but if you look in the Bible and and
like say I'm no expert on the Bible I
shouldn't be preaching but I know this
there's a lot of stuff in the Bible
which lines up with this you know ask in
the knowledge that you shall receive and
you shall receive or something like that
you know it talks about a lot of the
stuff the Bible is almost you know one
of the earliest self-help books there's
so much stuff in there that's in line
with all this type of sports psychology
there yeah
there must be something in it somewhere
and it seems to work thanks for bringing
a bit of religion to the program Richard
Richard I think we've covered a lot
today and hopefully our listeners have
got a lot out of it now they can go to
business of architecture and /fa be and
get the FA be training video that we
talked about last episode and then also
in the links to this video we'll go
ahead and put the power pyramid so we'll
make that available if you go to
business of architecture forward slash
pyramid and you can pick up that power
pyramid video that Richard was talking
about so Richard what's what's next on
the horizon where are you going what's
the future look like well look you know
since I attained up with you and Erica
we've been trying to save the world one
architect at a time we're on a we're on
a mission to help it takes around the
world you know with the Arctic's
marketing academy it's it's through
helping them communicate better and
Salah seriously believe I
tics are given a real raw job that you
know you guys you guys work for eight
years it's like a doctor and you end up
I don't know doing a whole lot of you're
not treated like a doctor you're being
commoditized to it to a great degree so
we need to sort that out you know we
need to get you communicating in a way
which which redresses the balance so you
know I am enjoying specializing and
helping architects market themselves
because it gets easier and easier
because it's the same problems coming up
again McGinn so as we see these problems
we were able to come up with tools and
resources to help them so I'm thoroughly
enjoying that that you know there is a
lot of free stuff so so put your name
down for some of that stuff there's some
stuff you can pay for which takes it
further but thoroughly enjoying working
with architects it's sort of 70% of my
work at the moment but really enjoying
it and it's really great working with
people from around the world so I'm
having a blast
some I'm pleased I've come into this
little funny little world of Architects
well Richard thanks for joining us in
the funny little world of Architects
yeah oh and that's a wrap for another
show about the business of architecture
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