all right welcome to another episode of
content sessions we are talking to
Michelle vennett hi thanks for having me
thank you so much for coming
so interior designer yeah so I like to
say decorator so I've mainly focus on
furnishing I do a little bit of help
like selecting finishes for renovations
but specifically I help furnish Joe with
floor plans decorating window treatments
all that stuff got it and so is that
that's kind of a step above interior
design or is it just kind of a different
realm we're not going it's just kind of
a different focus I would say like a lot
of designers really prefer to focus just
on renovations or new builds whereas I
really find that my niche is
specifically helping clients furnish
their homes where either you know they
did a renovation they ran out of money
in a year later they're now ready to go
to furnish or they just really want to
transform their space without having to
do a full read oh god yeah and how did
you get into that so I was I used to be
a graphic designer so I'm a trained
graphic designer and then from there I
started this makes no sense to how I got
here but my stories as well but then I
and then from there I kind of started
doing more marketing roles within I was
in a franchise so I was client-facing or
client side and I just elevant
absolutely irrelevant but I then like
start I got my own condo it was
decorating my condo got my own home and
while I was in corporate I had some
friends saying like oh you you know you
should really be a designer and I was
like huh like never thought of that
never crossed my mind that you could
actually do that for a living
right um and then it was it was my
five-year plan which was probably five
years ago
but then I lost my job so got canned and
I thought I there's no way
because I had been in corporate for
pretty much working for the same
employees like like different rules for
12 years
I'm interviewed and I was just like
there's no way there's no way I can do
that again I'm just gonna have to start
my own business group that's got to be
easier than an interview and then so
yeah basically I just I'm self-taught uh
and I started my business and very
similar very similar story to mine I was
in yeah I was in insurance doing risk
assessments oh and like casualty and
best super-sexy where and then but I
quit because I thought I was gonna yeah
it was not nice but yeah and then yeah
when I stopped I was like I'm just gonna
start doing something different yeah so
I haven't written I haven't had a resume
since 2006
yeah and writing a resume is like I did
I did update my resume when I was in
corporate and it was horrible do you get
a lot of pushback with the self-taught
element to be honest the beginning it
was more my own mental issue like
basically what I realized is you know I
I'm sure you can relate to this as soon
as you have your own business and you
like consider yourself an entrepreneur
there's just most of your barriers are
like our mindset related and I really
found I as soon as I started my own
business it was really important for me
to kind of get a handle on that and just
being able to like believe that I'm good
enough for you know sir that and a lot
of that did was it was a struggle for me
but a lot of the designers like some of
my favorite designers that I I like look
to you for inspiration on the regular
our self-taught so pretty much nine
times out of ten nobody ever asks a
question and the one time I was actually
I was on a call with a lead who was a
lawyer and they and it was her husband
and they asked me that and I just was
not prepared and I answered it terribly
he never became a client but it's just a
matter of being able to say like well
I'm self-taught this is you know yeah
and you know what if people can look at
the work and
can just draw their own conclusions from
my work and if my work is something that
you know resonates with you and is what
you want for your home and normally
that's that's fine yeah it's easy to get
into like a almost like a Down talk of
the self-taught especially in the early
stage like well I don't know I just like
figured it out on YouTube yeah cuz
that's what I yeah and then you you find
ways to like talk about it in a more
intellectual exactly and as long as I'm
prepared to answer the question in a way
that's of a more positive way than just
like spiraling like they did the one
time it's super important but um I was
gonna say something else about that but
but the other thing too is like a lot of
people look down on even just decorating
versus being a designer right and you
know when I find myself correcting you
know if somebody says oh interior
designer
I'm just correcting them because I'm not
trying to claim to be a designer because
I know a lot of designers can look down
if you don't have a degree or whatever
got it so oh yeah got it that makes
sense and so what's your favorite type
of project do you do like residential
and commercial or mostly residential
mostly residential the only commercial
I've done has been an air B&B in Prince
Edward County and I loved that project
but I really really loved that project
um they just let me do my own thing I
was able to be a little bit out of the
box but but mainly I really like working
residential mostly because it is a
little harder and more difficult because
it's so personal to your client but you
really get to create a space that is
that gets people excited the budgets are
a little bit better I mean it depends
but something like for an example an air
B&B the budgets aren't always the
greatest you know budgets right you know
I've realized fairly quickly that a
healthy budget helps me really be able
to be as creative as I want to be in
sure
so hmm what's the most interesting thing
you've ever put in someone's house wow
that's a tough question okay what's the
most interesting
I think I've never put in someone's
house um I probably had to look probably
the air be in someone's house it's not a
house it's the Airbnb but these spaces
were we needed to transform them in a
very very quick way so we didn't have
time to do like massive rhinos or cool
wallpaper so it's not necessarily like a
thing but we did like really cool we
painted really cool features on the
walls so you know certain walls were a
little bit awkward with like slanted
ceilings so instead of kind of working
against it I just decided to work with
it and make it feel a little more
intentional so like in one room it was
like these really cool stripes in
another room it was like a really long
room with a bit of an angle so I did
stripes and then they kind of went up to
a point
so and it was great because they just
were like yeah we trust you yeah which
is amazing that's good our well is well
papermaking to come back is that a oh
yeah big time yes I work so I worried I
worked for a flooring store way back in
my late teens early 20s and we have a
wallpaper like section of it we stopped
flooring it yeah and then the wallpaper
like slowly made it out but it seems
that it's like yeah it's huge right now
it's super huge right now and sometimes
clients like first of all the clients
you want to work with are the ones that
really trust you and like what
wallpapers not for every room but you
know in the right space where it makes
sense like it's if a client's gonna let
you trust they're gonna trust your
vision you can do some really cool stuff
and it's not like it used to be like now
they make it so that you can remove it
more easily and stuff so yeah that's why
no one liked it before I remember I just
scraped that off of that that way
back in the day it was horrible yeah
some people it has a bad rap but yeah
and so how do you get most of your
clients now no yeah or maybe even from
the beginning though now has actually
been a little bit more difficult so
because this year I actually created
like a minimum project fee minimum but
that I'm willing to work with you know
it's I'm going in it's actually my three
year anniversary this month
thank you early on it was all social
media and it's still very much is and
it's a lot of referral based stuff but
it's hard because you want referrals and
if you've only been working with kind of
lower budgets a lot of the times those
referrals just you know people hang out
with like-minded people
similarly income friends whatever but
early on it was very much social media
my and I wouldn't do this now but it was
very effective when I was building my
business so I would go into like the
local Facebook groups like the beaches
like Leslie ville anywhere where I could
be lighting cousin nearby sure um and I
would just felt read the rules and then
they would say like you can promote your
business on these days and set up a
counter I was just you got it yeah and
then I do a lot of very early on I did a
lot more video I know I was just trying
to create a name for myself and some
authority as far as like I know what I'm
talking about so trying to do a lot of
social media that way it was more
Facebook at that point I didn't get into
in scrim until not you know more
recently but yeah it's it's really
mostly just been social media and then
word of mouth hmm that's great yeah yes
so she was a tricky thing like with
anything that's like this type of field
it's like it's never in your mind until
it's like in your mind yeah I would talk
to a lot of like and I don't we don't do
a lot of work with that kind of a
service-based side from the advertising
perspective anymore but years ago we sue
a lot like roofing and this and this and
it's like yeah Google ads and that's it
like if someone's looking for a roof
that he got roof on their brain yeah I
guess you're interested a little bit
more cross over cuz like the idea of
like Renault porn and people ya want to
follow cool I'm sorry yeah do you use
Pinterest you put a lot on there no no I
know
Pinterest is like breaks my brain I
honestly have no idea
use it it's like I don't understand it
aside from you know sure maybe I've
posted my blogs into like Michelle's but
like my website yeah um bored but I
really don't understand how to use
Pinterest at all I'm sure there's some
low-hanging fruit yeah but I really
don't yeah one I can't remember who it
was we were talking to a couple weeks
ago but there's somebody who was you we
came up with a great way for them to use
Pinterest which i think is actually
relevant so they were doing it they were
having their clients set up a board yeah
going through and pinning stuff that
like spoke to them so you would almost
have like a mood board that they yeah
the self-created one yeah I think for
you you could post you know you have
buckets of like design inspiration and
travel and whatever and people follow it
but it's not it's not as directly
related to generating new business it's
more yeah people will follow you you can
build a bit of a name but I think it's
an interesting place to play especially
if you're already putting out content
like nice pictures and stuff yeah you
kind of just dump it into Pinterest yeah
so I mean if okay so if like using
Instagram as an example if I've posted a
picture on Instagram are you saying like
you could also post that picture and
what do you do you just upload the
picture cuz I guess in my brain I'm I
think of Pinterest as like I'm on the
internet painting web pages yeah it's
the only way I've ever really used it so
think about it like if you were to tag
the images in the right way mm-hmm
Pinterest being a search engine for
inspiration of like just fashion or
design or whatever if your image
resonates the right way it could rank
high in that search engine so if you had
like like a particular thing like like a
specialty cabinet or some kind of
pinstripe wall paper whatever say as an
example if you go in and write a caption
about the fact that it's pinstripe
wallpaper and tag it it's the same way
you would like G tag you're like hey
Ally give me some examples like
pinstripe yeah okay like similar to
hashtags yeah okay but but so it's the
same strategy yeah like what are the
ones that are relevant what may
okay so then the hope would be overtime
if someone's on Pinscher searching for
pinstripe wallpaper they could stumble
across your page am I just the thing is
with Pinterest is like 95 percent of it
is research-based yeah not so much
talking about that in your the last
podcast I listened to about I think it
was if your time with any Google I it's
like you want what did you call it it's
research-based vs. intent base yeah yeah
but Pinterest as a platform is mostly
research-based in DIY ish a little bit
yes so yeah yeah and if you're not
producing a lot of content for it it can
be tricky but I'd so so I would say
putting though the st. whatever is the
same pictures you're already putting up
put them on there as well
tag them up and then I would I add like
a link to my website or something yeah
absolutely it's a good yeah and then it
creates backlinks right so your so it's
not gonna help your search engine
optimization massively but every little
bit helps
yeah and then if that person if someone
takes it and we're to put it on one of
their websites or somewhere else it can
then create some links there as well
okay it's not gonna be the be-all and
end-all that's gonna like break your
website but it can be helpful to have
those types of things and then I think
the other thing is to do the same thing
so exact same strategy for Pinterest as
on house because you can create a free
profile on house and put up exact same
so even if you don't pay how am
bill yeah when you sign up they're gonna
hound aligner easy I am signed up but I
just don't use it yeah I mean I know
it's looking it's it's hard because like
as this solo you're later I I can only
do so much well or I can do everything
really terribly for sure so it's like
trying to figure out where to focus your
best efforts yeah and do it as well as
you can yeah and what I would say is if
and I'll give you some suggestions on
how to get some help with that kind of
server so you could think about it like
you prioritize putting the content on
your most impactful places yeah and like
you strategize you all the hashtags you
do it all and then you do a lot of
stories right which ya the focus of so
no one can really take yet over but then
what I would say is you've got a bucket
of content all the pictures and all this
stuff from them
if you
someone assisting you then maybe their
job is to recycle move it recycle it yet
everywhere else because I found a we
work with a custom home builder who puts
his stuff up and a guy who has a
renovation show have you heard of
hardcore rhinos Manny he's got a cool
really cool channel working on some okay
show with him but when you say a show
does that mean like a youtube show no
like a like a show that we're gonna try
and it on Netflix so it's like building
a custom home from scratch yeah the
whole thing but he's a filmmaker by
trade who became a renovator super
interesting yeah yeah really cool guy I
will remind me of that well listen to
this but um but yeah I think yeah him
and Matt the home builder they put a lot
of content up on house as much as
possible same again same ideas Pinterest
and that actually does generate some
leads
okay people stumbling across it because
they're going to they're going to look
they're going to build their dream
boards you ever you call them vision
board I don't know what it is yeah but
then they stumble upon something from
you and like oh who is this person
yeah if they happen to be in the right
geo it could turn into something yeah to
me for the amount of effort it actually
takes to put up yeah very fairly minimal
I think it's worth the investment of
like and like as far as the Pinterest is
concerned like okay I'm posting a
picture whatever picture I posted on
Instagram yet let's say it's a picture
of a bedroom am I just making one board
that I pin all of my own work into or am
i adding a maid or is it even relevant
or am i adding this bedroom to a bedroom
port that has my working and other
people's work great question
everyone does it differently so you
could have like so save this houses one
two three Queen Street you could have a
board for one two three Queen Street and
it could be everything related to that
okay you could do a board where it's
like bedroom stuff and it's all your
whatever bedrooms you've done and other
stuff do you find you add to it okay so
I always find having a mix of your stuff
and other people's stuff is a good
because it's like otherwise it's kind of
pure self-promotion I wouldn't do
Pinterest to try and get followers on
Pinterest what you want is for them to
take your pictures and you pin them
other places because so what happened
the ecosystem is basically oh I like
this I'm gonna put it in my board and
then as their board becomes discoverable
no one else finds oh I was looking for a
pinstripe wallpaper great I'm gonna put
this on my board and then their
followers see it and it it can go it can
get through the shareability of it it
can get attention right but in terms of
like driving people to follow your
profile I just completely ignore it
like that I don't that's harder to get
trapped that's harder to get followers
on than Twitter and Twitter is a
nightmare so so like one of it like I
was saying one of those strategies not
strategies one of the kind of my goal
for the year was to go after higher
paying clients which is proven to be
more difficult like the first years were
amazing but I'd rather have less clients
that I'm more impactful and you know
whatever and so I did a bit of work with
a branding company to help some of the
copy like she helped me come up with my
tagline yeah try to identify like based
on some of my current clients who my
ideal client might be and we kind of
landed on you know I really would like
to be working with business owners
number one it should in theory be easy
to find where business owners are
hanging out to try to yeah yeah but um
but for me it's like I my theory on the
whole business owner thing was like if
you own your own small business you
probably want a nice car you want your
hosts look a certain way because it
proves in a set like in a way that yeah
you know like I got it and you know
there's certain things I'm like well I
don't want people to think I'm not doing
well so what
I mean that's a theory I don't know
that's necessary true but also they just
get it like day they a small business
owner gets that there's a process and a
lot of times they're really busy so they
don't have time to you just kind of want
you to do it and then trust you and let
you do what you do best cuz that's kind
of how they do their own work so I just
haven't been Mike I'm like trying to
network and find places to go Network
but that's been a real struggle for me
to figure out like what crack the code
of how do I go after a higher pain
client yep good question god no no I
like it so there's two strategies that I
recommend being that Instagram is a
strong platform for you what I would do
is I would I would run very light
Instagram ads okay the low budget
Instagram ad and so the way I would do
that is when when you're in Instagram
you have the ability to boost a post
yeah never do that okay that's like the
Express just know everything everybody
everybody's done it but what it does is
it limits the way that you can target
and hit the right people right and so
where where's your market place GTA GTA
so I did try to run an ad where I tried
to target a certain like I mean like by
postal code they did yep again my theory
was is this the radiator situation right
now oh this this is this is the quiet
version if it gets louder we take a
pause it gets like real okay so I did
try to do that but I think it's like
anything it's like you should give up
too quickly right I mean I try to I
can't remember what I tried to do like
businesses or something and so I'm
totally on board with this strategy if I
have liked it so I I don't know if it
makes sense for me to pick pockets of
the city that in theory should be like a
wealthier client
yep and like okay so I'm very open to
strategies on how to execute that
effective
and how long you should give it before
you bore me Shane got it so let's talk
about that we're just gonna wave sure to
pass okay there now it's gonna I could I
could hear it comes from over there yeah
and it like shakes the building and it
gets really out of control so you sleep
in this building right it's utility up
to where your place no I'm just used to
yeah
should be good now okay was like back in
yes so Facebook ads so you've already
instagram either one so you you've run
some in the past where you targeted a
location in the city mm-hmm yeah I so
basically what I did was I I did I've
targeted the same for all three I was
curious which image yeah would be no
like which which one would resonate with
people so that wasn't really the only
thing I changed was the image and I
dargah 'td I can't remember it was based
on geography in the city within like the
immediate GTA based on you know I wanted
to be a wealthier client but also like
not your Dale Styles necessarily yet and
then I I know I think I only just I
can't remember how it works would I have
just picked an existing post in a
targeted a but I didn't really change
what it said right so actually the image
and copy was obviously different because
it was based on yeah yeah yeah promoted
got it but I didn't necessarily just it
but anyway that's what I did I mean yeah
it wasn't a lot of money it wasn't a nut
lebryk revolutionary enough for me to
like keep going and also just was like I
get scared I mean I waste money yep
doing something wrong got it just
handing money over Instagram yeah so
you're on the right track I'd say you're
about forty percent there okay so doing
with the geographies makes a lot of
sense so when you drop a pin or you do
by postal code can set it by you like a
city you can narrow down to one mile so
you can just set up a whole bunch of
little dots in all those magical little
areas and you can use Canada Post has
like a planner for mail ever yeah where
you can target by income oh so you can
get a sense of it from that which is
helpful yeah it's like it's like
campaign planner for like mail outs
awesome yeah so that's really helpful
and then so drop all your pins so
there's a couple things with the
targeting business owners can be got in
one of two ways so when you're targeting
there's three different things there's
interest based there's demographic base
and there's behavior based okay so if
you select business owner
small business owner there's people that
are interested in that there's people
that are business owners so you want to
you want to find the demographic or the
behavioral ones oh okay
so and it'll say in brackets beside
whatever the targeting thing so making
sure that it's in the behavior of being
a small business owner that'll help
so that'll have target it and then the
other thing you can do is most business
owners our Facebook page administrators
so you can also target by people who are
administrators of a Facebook page so the
two yes so those are the two that you
can do that in Instagram yes so but what
you have to do is not boost what you
have to do is go to business stop
facebook.com okay and create a business
profile so Michele banette design will
be in a profile then you suck your pages
in your Facebook page and your Instagram
so it has control okay then you create
an ad account inside there and when you
create the ad account that's where you
can build out more robust targeting so
what you'll do is you'll create and I'll
you I'll send you the recording so you
don't remember all this but yeah you
create an engagement ad then you use
that targeting so your little dots and
your Facebook page men and your small
business owner behavior right so that's
then it's like a little bit tighter yeah
and then you can either choose so the
third screen is you can choose an
existing post or you can choose a dark
post so that's something that's not in
your Instagram feed and something is
customized to only be seen by certain
people okay which is typically a good
idea because the way that you're going
to were the copy yeah is usually going
to be different than what you post right
you know I mean it's gonna be a little
bit more you're gonna ask them a
question or you're gonna be trendy draw
some engagement with the conclusion of
come talk to me so you the wording is
gonna be different so you can use the
same image but you'll when you get to
the third page it will say create an ad
or use an existing post you create an ad
and then that will do it that way and
and what is your thoughts on what should
I be me
do in my who should I be saying like am
I trying to sell obviously right away
yeah so it depends on what your funnel
looks like if so and your so your sales
cycles long mm-hmm right so in with real
estate like real estates for the wars
that's like nine months eight months so
that's like you really got to be content
heavy but your rudimentary low-hanging
fruit you could probably ask for people
to come to your website and see if they
like you yeah in in a bigger picture I
would create two or three pieces of
super value driven content get them to
your website and then retarget them
later it's a lot it's obviously more of
an advanced process but like anything
where you can explain a process that
they can take away and do themselves
without ever hiring you that's the best
type of content so okay yeah I'm curious
about that so because in my space
there's obviously a lot of people who
are di waters right and like I'm trying
to go after somebody who cuz I there's
also you know some designers in myself
included last year where you might put
together a plan for a client for them to
execute on their own so now I'm kind of
like okay no I don't even want to do
that I want unless it's on my terms
great client I'm slow but it's not on my
website it's not like a package that I
openly talk about right so it's full
service like you don't want to do it you
have no desire to do it you know that
you can't do it you're a busy human you
have other things to do so if that's the
type of person I'm going after do you
still suggest like is it just you gotta
be different about what those like do
yourself type value add just are if
that's the type of person I'm trying to
get yes and no I think there's an
argument to be made to give them very
similar content because even the person
that knows they can't do it on their own
likes the dreaming process likes that
ooh but if I did this then they're gonna
go down that mental path yeah with this
and I think it's with everything right
like even people that I talk to that I
think about doing marketing yeah they
know they're gonna outsource it but
there's no like wanna they want to taste
it I want to run
Facebook counter so to me it's like
giving them the tools to dabble and then
they're like cool I'm done playing I
need to hire somebody so but I think
it's the content is very similar and I
think creating some stuff that's a
little bit more DIY because of the mass
appeal will help build the brand faster
than something that's like completely
specific to I'm gonna save you time and
effort money yeah if you're going down
the path of saving time and effort money
what I would do is I would curate
content that's like you know the the
best like cabinet brands or the best
wallpaper styles so almost like fashion
blog style the bet the top ten this the
up-and-coming designers who are making
this or like these products that's how I
would do it like the like paint color
trends right so create that so they can
start you can like help them build out
their lookbook yeah yeah which then they
might pass off to you too okay I've done
yes and it also helps your process a
little bit exactly so you have to do
right and so I would think about it like
this so you can Pinterest has like a
plug-in that can tap into your website
okay so if they're like hovering over as
they go do you want to save this to
Pinterest oh yeah I do have that yes so
what you could do is here's the you know
the top trends for this paint colors or
the this or the that target that content
out to those higher profile people
mm-hmm and then when they're on it
they're like oh she's these are what
these are the popular things that I
should care about because I want popular
things yeah because that's usually the
mindset yeah and then they can save
those things into Pinterest and then
you're kind of attached yeah to it in
that way oh so that I would maybe go
that instead of DIY like the top yes and
it could be like you know
up-and-coming hutch makers I don't
know idiot yeah like we suggested
was like creating quizzes too so like
I'm putting a heavy emphasis on art
again that's kind of one of the things
that I try to differentiate that's
another tough thing is joke how am i
different but so she's like you know you
could make like what's my art style and
people loved it was is so you could you
got to at least get them in and also
she's like double whammy they've it's
helped them it gives you information
that's valuable if you do start working
with them that they've already done
written work which is kind of helpful
because there is a lot of you are asking
a client to do like if we're gonna work
together it's important for me to be
able to hit the mark for you for you to
do some of that upfront work for me to
understand your style and yeah well you
like what you don't like what is your
budget that's realistic what's your
thought on a tool to help them come up
with a budget is I just that crap it's
no it's challenging for your industry
okay you could do like a style
questionnaire that spits out of based on
these things this would be a budget
gonna be really hard with the variables
of things because if they're doing like
then you'd have to have like a bathroom
one and a kitchen one and one how many
different things do you have within it
to make it full enough so you'd actually
get a realistic budget yeah I don't know
I know there's a piece of software
that's like a reporting dashboard thing
where on the home page as I went down
and this is what got me to buy it it was
like how many clients do you have a
I'll fill it in whatever yeah and then
it said how many metrics do you give
them for reporting okay and then how
long does it take you to do each one and
that it was like five things and it was
like cool well you could be spending
this amount of time or paying your
employees this amount to build these
dashboards or if you sign up it's like
$99 a month instead of 400 these are the
man-hours and cuz of all the stuff and
all right yeah yeah yeah I don't know if
there's too many variables for it to
work for you but I like it as a positive
variables for sure like it could just be
because what I do when I'm working early
on it to be honest it's there's a lot of
like pre-qualifying that I would like to
be doing yeah I like not wasting my time
not to say like that but you know
talking to people who their budgets are
just so unrealistic yeah like it is a
luxury service yeah what I would what I
would do what's your main intake of lead
website did you get a lot through there
yeah so it'll be two things it's either
someone's filled out the form on my
website immediately and that has some
pre qualifying questions and then or
money um like what's your what's your
budget share a Pinterest board if you
have it what give me a quick idea of
this scope I want to say like five
things okay make it like ten yeah make
it ten I want to be turning people off
because they're more made motivated if
you're actually doing it make it ten and
then make the the budget a drop-down
that starts at yeah hundred 150 150 dude
then they give you started yeah one of
our one of our other clients they build
they build rock climbing walls okay for
gyms if I want to start up gym these
guys would come in to manufacture wall
and there's is like 17 questions and but
the people that fill it out are super
qualified it's not the guy who wants
like one panel in the basement in his
home it's like right so you can push
people about if not push people oh but
it's better so then because you're
everyone's wasting everyone's getting
wasted time if it's not the right thing
I would I would make somebody spend 45
seconds to two and a half minutes
filling out your form yeah I think
you'll get better yeah better filter
that on that okay yeah that's so funny
because like I was told the opposite but
I can totally you know I think the
opposite holds true if you're really
just trying to build an email list but
yeah I
really just want to build an email list
like I want if I have a lead funnel for
clients like I'd rather be you're gonna
have a pop-up on your website that's
like hey you want some design
inspiration weekly here you go yes I
suppose so that makes a lot of sense I
will that's an easy fix
I lost Metreon I thought I was gonna add
something else that's all right so I'll
go back to the Facebook ad thing you
think it's a good so you've got your map
pins you've got your targeting and you
pick like one of your best performing
pictures something you posted it so yeah
go through it oh this has got the most
and you can see so when you sign up for
this business stuff facebook.com you can
actually go back through the insights
and get really in-depth Oh information
about what's performed including
Instagram obviously yeah and so what I
would do from there is okay I've got
that and then I write my copy so the
best way to run those ads is to run at
three to five dollars a day okay
for as long as you can okay so the
reason you do that is because so I would
run it at like five to ten dollars a day
for the first week because what that
does is it generates a bunch of
engagements it gets a couple hundred
likes or five or six hundred likes then
the next person seeing it at six hundred
likes oh the second this is actually
like meaningful sometimes enough people
have paid attention to this even if you
forced it doesn't matter so once you get
kind of like past that fifteen hundred
likes then people start taking it more
seriously so the longer it's up the
better now you can preload your daily
budget so you get a bunch of them up
front and then you can literally put it
back to one dollar a day and just let it
run forever and ever and ever the longer
you let something run and the less
dependent that content is on a specific
time so what we call it is evergreen
content so it's like this Perrier can
can live on forever and nobody's it
doesn't matter it's not snowing in the
background we're not referencing an
event it's just here's a Perea can go
leave that forever and ever and ever and
ever because the more likes and the more
engagement it gets the hot then people
start sharing and tagging other people
okay so the longer you can let stuff run
the better
like is there a point where you're like
well there's no point in running this
longer because it's just not performing
like yeah for sure and what I mean
that's just getting deep but yep no so
what I do is if you run it as an
engagement style ad which is so there's
the there's about nine different types
of ads you can run but engagement which
is like a like a share or comment as an
engagement or a traffic at which is like
someone going to another destination
like the website so I would run it as an
engagement ad okay and what you want to
monitor is the engagement rate so how
many people saw it versus how many
people took an action so when you're in
the dashboard it's called the
interaction rate if that's above - then
you're in great shape if it's below if
it's below 0.75 it's kind of and
okay so maybe this is a stupid question
but like what does engagement do for me
if I'm trying to think of like a long
term ROI meet oh really if nothing
but would it so the short answer is
nothing it's not guaranteeing traffic to
the website you can have a button that
says learn more and go to the website
and people can still click it on and
engage them that oh okay it doesn't
limit it you just add a call to action
which is learn more so you will get some
traffic to the site at first nothing
people are gonna see a pretty picture
and they're gonna like it and then more
people will like it you're like oh
that's great
I had an ad that we ran for an
e-commerce store and the first nine
months gathered somewhere around 2,500
likes and a buddy you ran it for nine
months yeah we ran it for 18 but at the
nine-month mark it was at like five
hundred comments and nine hundred shares
like it was crazy engagement
nothing barely any traffic visits to the
store
no purchases and no Instagram or
Facebook so that was all that particular
one was on Facebook like how are you
always getting new fans yep okay well
that's something there was something but
but heavy level of like the ratio of
people sharing it out with their friends
so here's what happens right if I share
it and then that person takes an action
it's outside of the ad so that traffic
to the website you don't see it through
the ad platform but I can I know if
if you put in a so I'll get to that in
one second but what ended up happening
just to kind of finish the story is
there was so much engagement on it that
it took on a life of its own so we ran
it at one dollar a day for the remaining
time and it went from like I think it
did
honestly I think it it ate sales in the
first nine months and then it was
averaging 25 sales a month for every
month after because it got to that that
tipping point where people are like holy
this this is so cool like so many
people care about it yeah a lot bigger
those numbers are the new people seeing
it will see it as relevant or more
important yeah that's the key
okay that's how you do it for so as much
as you can front load and then over time
as it gets steamed over 1,500 lights
people oh this is interesting this has
gotta be and you just kind of want to do
its thing let it do its thing so unless
I'll be able to know like how many
people liked my page from that yep and
not on Instagram oh okay no that's the
big that's a big lacking thing for yeah
unfortunately if it was a facebook
addict code what would your Facebook or
Instagram and I'm sure it's like
industry specific for you I would run
the same thing on both yeah and just see
what happens because because Facebook
with so Facebook's has just the share
ability and people's desire to share on
Facebook is higher than Instagram
Instagram will like they'll tag it or
they'll like it but it's not gonna get
it can't it's not gonna go as viral when
it's like a picture pretty
it'll get some following on both I would
run the exact same thing with the exact
same picture is that exact same call to
action on both okay and then maybe yeah
maybe you'll see in so what I find is
Facebook is better for conversion mm-hmm
Instagram is cheaper for engagement okay
so on Facebook you're gonna pay 10 or 12
cents an engagement on Instagram it
might be like 2 or 3 mm-hmm and then if
you can run video if you have like a
15-second video it's even it's gonna
have even better for either I would
video on Instagram okay Facebook not so
much so Facebook picture Instagram
picture or video
the kind of thing that sucks with
Instagram with video though as an
engagement at is of view is an
engagement so it's one sent engagements
but it's like yeah how much are people
actually taking other actions from there
and that will dictate if it's good or
not but it's good for viewability yeah
right and you could do it in a way where
like it just run a video at a dollar a
day it's gonna get a hundred views and
eventually it'll like so if you've got a
cool video of some 15-20 seconds I would
run that just as like a branding yeah
exercise they don't have anything like
well let's talk about video we were
talking about briefly about that yeah
yeah so like I was saying I do I really
I feel like it's important for me to be
doing consistent video I don't know and
it's the whole like should it be on
YouTube and I just repurposed that down
to Instagram or like instagrams IG TV
yeah but regardless of that like the the
barrier for me with a video is the
editing of the video which is why I like
stories especially now that you can hold
it and you know I have to like that
whole like yeah whatever that was really
annoying but I like and I also like
Facebook live I don't do it very much on
my business page by it because I just I
know care so much about it being
polished by so like what would are some
strategies on getting videos edited at a
reasonable rate that's not like like
somebody right yeah yeah I got you gotta
you gotta talk to Pia she's very both
she's like pretend you can hear that's
no so there's a couple different things
you can do my recommendation is you can
put out job posts yeah on school
websites cool job yes like my unibrow
yeah so anything anyone that has that
type of program hey I'm looking for
someone to work part-time it's this
amount an hour posted on those job
boards hey really effective okay really
really effective I lucked into these
guys through buying kind of network but
so that's one way like so George Brown
and
that because even if even if people are
working full-time somewhere that like
extra at X amount an hour in the after
hours yeah can be really practical so
people like that are just in the
workforce but it's a recent graduate
they're probably still attached to that
circulation yeah so so okay so
University and college job boards online
is really good and then depending on how
much time you have to manage people as a
whole
I've also I haven't actually gotten down
I'm telling everyone about it but I've
been fully used it yet there's a thing
called gnm okay it's like digital remote
internships but it's all North American
okay the guy out of Allah who came up
with it and so you pay into the platform
you get credits towards having interns
they give you ten hours a week for three
months and what in like in all facets
like in anything is yes GPA work so you
can yes you can look at it you can look
up by their skills you can look up by
what they're trying to do but they I
think the way that it works is they get
some kind of credit for putting in that
work okay so school credit or jobs so
it's it's beneficial to them yeah it's
not just like I feel like yeah
and so we're interviewing for some of
those positions right now just for like
just for mass content creation right so
we shoot this and this is all these
cameras yeah and then this audio so what
we're gonna do is we'll make this into a
full-length YouTube yeah then the audio
will go into pot into the podcast then
we'll find a short enough segment to put
an IG TV Facebook watch LinkedIn what is
Facebook watch Facebook watch is the
same thing as the scram TV so it's more
like you have to you have to apply for
it and they'll let you in or not
but it's the same thing it's long-form
video content on Facebook on Instagram
TV what is your record well I guess in a
way how long 15 minutes in which to
recommend is
time for an Instagram video I don't know
I don't know we've we've had some that
are like so we put up one that was like
three minutes and then we're just about
to put up one that's ten
I don't know clue yet I haven't played
with it enough I know that they so
here's what I know
if you're putting videos on there the
amount of your discovery feed that has
IG TV videos is getting bigger
quicker real fast so they're pushing the
out of it
so to me it's a great place to play
because Instagram if Instagram cares
about it so it's like why not go after
that well you can so I think it's
important which is why we're cutting
down three to ten minute clips and we're
gonna put those up on there right and
then stuff that's obviously cut for
story stuff that's obviously good so and
then I don't know if you've seen the one
that there's this program called wave
WAV ve and so it makes you make a
picture you put the picture and then you
upload audio and it makes the files like
the audio file and you can make the
audio and like this wave or up here or
like in a circle and it likes it so
makes like an animated photo for you
okay so when we're when I'm trying to
create you know maybe 30 pieces of total
content out of this it might be more
practical for it to go to it an intern
style thing where like hey just create
you know animate some stuff in a story
or use these sound waves or all that
stuff
I have seen people I have seen that like
no Ivan I didn't know where it was
coming from yeah it's really good what
about stories like do you put a high
value on stories absolutely just because
of the visibility live and stories as
much as humanly possible we people like
the personal raw behind the scenes they
just like in acting yeah and so and just
and so one thing I've noticed we've
tinkered with a couple different
accounts with like posting three times a
week versus every day versus once every
two weeks where's the and what we found
is the more frequency you post at least
once a day the the further up the the
feed you get because they like volume
yeah
and I don't know if I don't know from
the algorithm side if that's true just
just what we've observed yeah so at
least one story everyday is moving your
little bubble closer to the front of
people's house
you know what I wasn't sure what that
was I didn't know if it was me watch it
like it was favoring the ones I watched
it's part of that but I think I think
what ties into that is frequency okay
once at least at least something every
day even if it's like yo I did this new
post click to see the P that's a cheap
version of it yeah even stuff like that
but every every every every everyday
sometimes something on the story at
least one or two things yeah I keep
telling myself okay your stories are
great though you do try to make them
like no you do good job thank you but
sometimes I'm just like I have nothing
to say today I could just really have
nothing to say and I also don't wanna be
the person that's just like I came on
just to come on but I would I noticed
for Instagram I I was really like I'd
wanted to mostly put more of my content
on like a lot of designers will do
inspiration which I'm totally fine with
and because you know sometimes when I'm
a newish business and I've done lots of
projects but that doesn't mean I've
photographed all of them because I'm
only putting out what I want to get more
of and even even the ones I put out like
I don't still feel like I've had those
projects that are like 100% like truly
my vision my aesthetic or whatever but
but I so I was really struggling on like
what to post I was doing a terrible job
but then I started using the preview app
to like build it and now that I have it
all built and I'm like oh I'm excited to
post so I think I have to do the same
thing for stories which one which one do
you use for the planning is called
preview okay and it's free yeah I've
heard of other ones in color stories the
one we use yeah I mean I've
the colors is it uncle colors story yeah
so a beautiful mess the blog of those
bloggers are the ones I
previews when you use II's preview and I
think a color story has a whole bunch of
like you can pay for filters to write
and really good filters yeah um but I
just started using that when someone
told me about it and it's been very
effective but I think that I have to do
the same I have to come up with a plan
for my week on like what I'm gonna talk
about right and now I try to go into my
week and going do I have something today
and just come up with a strategy you
know one thing that will help a hack
content and that so being a
toronto-based person you're not a local
brick-and-mortar yeah
you still want to build community yeah
you want people to like you yeah so what
I would do is if you've like I
don't have anything in my story today
like going anywhere I'm sitting in my
pajamas with the fun which is every day
but yeah that's I'm filming from here is
getting content from vendors or people
that you're in regular contact with to
give them the shout out so you get
microphone you get their content and
you're like hey audio technica just came
up with this new whatever or hey this
these guys just did this cool renovation
in their building or hey new product
launched this at whatever just launched
this new wallpaper it's friggin awesome
check it out so then you're giving them
love giving them shout out you can use
their pictures and they'll be happy to
let you use them because you're yeah
saying nice things
no probably like free sharing on their
story yeah and so it's good for getting
that residual bounce of yeah I wonder if
there's a way like companies to be that
are not necessarily just design
companies but companies that might have
my audience but I don't know yeah and
you guys kind of died
dig in make a list make a list like
people the to reach out to even like you
know I say - I say it - like mortgage
brokers and real estate agents all the
time like be the like friendly
neighborhood person who gets in love
like you stories in other people's
spaces with them tag introduce them like
interview him talk to people about stuff
because then you know I mean then
they're getting that
and then again from the greedy side of
it is that they then share it out yeah
and then they're pinning you up and then
you've got audience of theirs yeah
that's so true it has it has a residual
impact I can just create a running list
so that it's like don't know what to do
today so boom like just start yeah what
I do is we have a ghost Instagram
account that only follows very
particular things so when I go into the
feed it's like only a handful of very
specific things so I don't take open
profile okay so like for example so for
example we have one Instagram account
that only follows our clients so that
when I'm going through I can just add a
quick glance I can see what all our
clients are posting all the time and I
can give them feedback to talk to them
about it then you could have a separate
Instagram account that is following
here's the ten or fifteen brand that I'm
gonna use to look and then it's just a
quick it's just easier to walk that's
the idea like you're not being barrage
it was like a bunch of other stuff that
you're not seeing what you're then you
don't have to go from profile the
profile you just like a couple times a
week you pop on and like scroll through
and then it takes 30 seconds to see what
all these people have posted in that
week and you can cheat so don't tell
Gmail but you can cheat so you can make
so what you do is you you same email
address okay and then you go plus sign
one I think that's how it works plus
sign one so you can't make another
Instagram account with your same email
oh he can't know you can't more than one
Instagram account not with your same
email really what you do I think is you
go plus one and it doesn't recognize it
oh it doesn't recognize those things
okay and that it allows you to use the
same email address okay okay yeah okay
there's another hack yeah I know how are
we doing for time can I ask you one more
question
yeah what time is it yeah what's your
heart take on LinkedIn oh my necks
is not till 3 okay um
LinkedIn so obviously if I'm trying to
go
what's that that's been that was on my
mind from the big day there's a lot of
designers I don't think use LinkedIn
really and so I feel like if I'm going
after like a business owner or somebody
that's like got money they probably are
in LinkedIn and so I started by at least
following all my existing clients or any
leave that I've had I just so that like
if they're engaging it's you know
whatever but aside from that I I really
haven't done anything on LinkedIn I
don't try to be more active there it's a
great place the organic reach in
LinkedIn is crazy right really yeah I'm
spending a lot of time on it right now
so what do you do on it so I so same
thing so it's it's all the existing
content and then you format it for the
platform okay so my business will share
hey the new podcast is out with a
picture linking back to either YouTube
or to the website page so my business is
posting that okay and then Mike the
human is also posting so tagging tagging
the brand so always tagging our brand
stuffs might my network is seeing it I
can push them back to follow my brand
number okay and then we use about 3 to 5
hashtags ok the posts so I use it within
the content so if within the sentence
structure if you can I saw you I'm doing
that and then we are so sometimes so
there's two ways of posting from
yourself one is a post and one is an
article okay two different things
I split back and forth between the two
so my post is if I'm linking out to
YouTube video or something else so it'll
be like hey check out tag as many things
you can a couple of hashtags a tag
whatever so when I did the one with the
mortgage broker you tagged a bunch of
real estate agencies and mortgage berg
companies and then some of them took it
and liked it or did whatever they did
with it okay so it gets just draws their
attention and yeah and then it linked
out to the YouTube video
so that was one thing okay and then I if
you have longer form stuff like whatever
is on your blog okay put that on
LinkedIn as well it doesn't care if it's
the identical content do you mean as an
as an article so like cut copy paste
yeah put it right into their and okay
yeah and then so that it shows up
differently but I find that making sure
that you you have at least one thing a
month if someone's coming to your
profile it's better for attempt I'll be
blank
yeah so having you know say one post
every two weeks or one post a month and
then one article at least once a month
is like a good ratio stuff and but the
article you can cheat the article can be
whatever you've already made an article
from you can just repurpose it okay and
the post can be linking to different
places so depending on and the post
could be like hey you know I know you're
working on a podcast so come hey the new
episode just came out yeah can we talk
about that like I I'm a little bit like
I don't really do much with it because
I'm like first of all it's not like I
really want clients to hear that because
sometimes there's like you know you're
talking real yeah
stop about like situations right
whatever or even like financial stuff
like it's like I've won no part of my
clients really listening to that I was
never podcast then what's that I'm wise
not true like I have a Facebook group
that's like geared to designers I've
been loaded in there and I do put it if
it doesn't feel ultra sensitive I will
post it on my Instagram and I don't care
so let me ask you this let's take a step
back what is the point of it the
ultimate goal of my podcast is that I'm
using as an excuse to talk to the
designers and designers will not say
when you asked me to be on podcast call
centers will not say yes who it's I well
unless you're meat but like but if
you're like if I were to because I'm a
new business and I'm self-taught and
like so it's everything is new yeah
so I want to learn as my I want to get
as much information so it's more b2b
focused very much and and ultimately
like I mean there's long term they're
like you know get a you know it's not
like I'm thinking it may not become
something I do have like 1200 people in
my Facebook group that could become
something down the line building an
audience is always good don't know what
I would do with it but but real
ultimately the the idea is I want to
pick your brain and if I just ask you to
pick your brain you would say no right
and it's a very effective strategy yeah
I want to take you out for coffee does
not yield as much information as come on
my podcast
yeah and people are into it and like I
can actually talk to people and people
are excited I'm flattered that you want
them to be my god yeah oh sure yeah
that's awesome Utley the goal obviously
secondary goals is like great if there's
if that becomes you know that could be
something that I monetize I don't know
but that's really not data may go long
god I'm really just trying to learn as
much as I can in an industry that I came
into like late in the game and yeah it's
tricky where like because right now your
profile is is client and b2b facing and
you don't want to set up a separate
persona just to deal with the b2b side
so it's that's tricky if you've got
sensitive stuff that you don't want
clients to hear yeah I don't know like
you could set up separate channels for
it but then you got to manage another
channel so I'm just putting out of the
mentality I'm like I don't know that I
necessarily need to put it out there
like that's not my ultimate goal if it
organically grows I continue to promote
it in my closed group that's right yeah
but the interesting thing is a lot of
designers and I did a poll but those
polls are like whoever you're watching
your stories like how many of your
designer
any of you or not right it's a
significant amount of people that are
designers that follow other designers
yeah so it's a very like muddy audience
of like a lot of designers but also
potential clients and it's like and I
find there's a lot of day like I'm it's
like I'm trying to keep it specific to
like people following me and then
hopefully they become clients at some
point but I think but I think there's a
I think there's a part of it where it's
like so I'm so I'll give you my exam I
use mine for not directly for lead gen
but just for building brand yeah right
somebody listening to this hearing the
ideas I give to people it's really
helpful for people that are thinking
about how a hundred percent right so
that's that's my goal with this but it's
in for me it's a way of communicating
where I'm poor communicating another way
like I write like a six year old child
so this is my medium and says why I'm
yeah but this is like it's kind of a you
know validates us and shows us that we
know what we're talking about so that's
my motivation I would say it's good for
you it's a good to get respect within
the industry but I would I wouldn't
promote it if it's gonna have that like
certain content it's not really yeah
there's just some stuff that's just a
little sensitive when you're having a
conversation with a designer about like
tell me about a bad experience with the
claim then you're like here was mine
well okay so I'm pretty particular about
what ones I might write but I do I mean
I get a lot of people that are like
sharing it and then I'll reshare it like
if I'm because it's you know people are
enjoying it but I'm just kind of like
this is starting to get confusing ya
know yeah and I do for these designers
are confusing even their blogs it's like
sometimes they write a blog for another
interior designer but then sometimes you
know it's like that's getting a little
confusing like who's I don't know good
answer to that yeah I have no idea how
to deal with yeah I'm just gonna know
unless it's like a fight so if I look
put most
I'm not gonna go through it they're
gonna be like why would I listen to this
right unless they're like yeah but here
but but there is an argument and I just
this just popped into my I think that
there's an argument against well if you
if you swear people are gonna be turned
away from wanting to work with you yeah
and that's fine like if it's if I want
to work with people who are gonna get me
so I feel the same way about your
content right like if they're not
playful enough to be like yeah but some
clients would be idiots yeah then it's
like don't tell this to my baby
so specific that one point that happened
to be right example and if we're gonna
put it out there in a medium like
podcast just because it's so on trend
and it's you know a lot of the people
that are in it feel like there's it's
all it's so saturated no but like it's
just starting yeah I know
and so you could really build big brand
bring got big audience using it which is
what we're trying to do yeah and so I
don't know maybe you should just put it
out yeah you have to come to terms with
the the back the back fire from it but
that's but you know what you're gonna
get back fire from any time you're
trying to be the brand they're gonna be
people like oh I don't like the way you
do this so I'm never gonna work with you
yeah you're gonna which I am you're
gonna thumb you're gonna flush that out
anyway yeah so it's kind of just another
another layer of that site I mean and I
guess it's true it's like you can't
please everybody so you know I just
never want to be offensive to existing
clients at all obviously it's not like
I'm horrific like that but yeah that
went a little too deep but but
regardless yeah I guess it's just a
matter of figuring out whether it makes
sense for me to keep promoting it cuz I
did think maybe I should just open up a
second Instagram that's more specific to
that but who's got time for that a lot
maintenance
it isn't one of me no yes I just stopped
having my own personal account too
because it was too much to go back over
I'm on my way there right now it's too
much
yeah yeah but no I think I think
spending time writing even repurposing
stuff for LinkedIn that links back to
the website early expect other places is
great just because of the reach of it's
really good I would if you have a piece
of content that's like really
high-quality that speaks to a really
specific audience I would post it on
LinkedIn and use it as an excuse to
connect okay so if that piece of content
does not lead back to you needing to be
hired to be the answer then it's good
content okay right so if if it's if it's
2/3 of the answer then but you wanna
hire me to know the rest yeah not gonna
work yeah but if it's like really like
here's ten awesome things that'll help
you do this then you could reach out to
people and say hey I wanted to connect
with you I wrote this piece that I think
is really great just wanted to share it
with you if you're interested if not
whatever yeah if that piece of caught if
they agree to that and then they come
and you're like oh but you have to hire
me then yeah you suck you suckered me in
but if it is truly standalone a really
good piece then you that will really
help you as well so okay play with bad
ideas and what like I guess what kind of
people would I cuz it's so like just any
business or whatever I guess it just
depends on what I write about but yeah
that's that's the piece that's a little
bit like difficult for my brain but yeah
because you're because your audience
only needs you when they need you and
it's really specific and there's not
like I can't really build a persona that
you can then target that way yeah a
little bit I know challenging yeah I
would find like I would build out a
persona as best you can and find them
like so you you can search on LinkedIn
by like job title and then what industry
they're in and the seniority that they
have and maybe do it that way
sales navigator you can actually in so
that's like the upgraded version of the
LinkedIn you can get like really narrow
on like who you want to target and then
just do an individual reach out to them
we're gonna see how it works like just
test the waters you might get it might
be a crapshoot but to me here's the
thing right if it's somebody even if
they're not interested now but they fit
your persona and then they do agree to
follow you and then you post something
eight months later that's the right
piece and like oh you know what maybe
they're friends Susan's like how
looking for someone oh yeah she just did
this post you should go talk to her it's
just it all Nets out to positive and so
I would say just kind of experiment with
it and if it doesn't if they're not the
right people to follow you they'll
either leave or they'll say yeah or
whatever cares yeah but okay actually
start actively posting it yeah well we
tackled a lot we did thanks so much for
coming out thank you
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